Artisan Archive
Thread: Economics 101: The Bane of Player Based Economies
You make some valid points, but you fail to factor in a few detailsin your equation. You make the assumption that a finished product is worth more than thecomponents used to create them. You also say the cost of the resources is irrelevant.
In this game resources aremore valued than many finisheditems, especially to those grinding their profession. A finished swoop doesnothing tohelp youattain master artisan as where 8000 units of metal is very helpful.Even in RL because of economies of scale components are often worth more than a finish product. Try purchasing all of the piece for a carindividually as an example.
The cost of resources is also important.Mining your ownresources on average cost less than .3 cpu.Using that valuea swoopcost about 2500 credits to produce. If you sell it for 16000 credits you have earned 13500 credits or a 540% return on your investment. The crafter is making a decent profit.
Looking at this from a profit/loss and supply/demand stand point it is perfectly reasonable that 8000 units of resources can produce a finished good that sells for only 16000 credits; while the more desirableraw resourcewould be 24000 credits.I do understand your argument, but the fact that resources sell for 3 cpu or more is a reflection oftheir valueinthe raw state. Also I do agree that if a crafter is paying for their resources they should mark up their product accordingly.Finally, I agree that if you want to be rich selling vehicles is not the bestway to go since the price per resource ratio is not as lucrative as other products.
ShaoSanPoi wrote:
The cost of resources is also important.Mining your ownresources on average cost less than .3 cpu.Using that valuea swoopcost about 2500 credits to produce. If you sell it for 16000 credits you have earned 13500 credits or a 540% return on your investment. The crafter is making a decent profit.
Atreus47 wrote:
There needs to be more variation in the quality. For instance, if the speed of a vehicle depended on the quality ofthe resource then I think there would be a market for high qualities rides. My 2 high quality speeder bikes that I bought off a friend (he got something like 95% on his crafing roll) for 10k each are just as fast as a horrible qualilty bike that barely made it past crit failure and I can repair either with the shuttle bug. Most people would pay more for a high quality speeder bike that was even faster then the ones we have now. Oh, and the deeds definately need to show the stats.
Well, normally the quality matters greatly. Right now though, all vehicles are being produced with 1500 HP. This STILL does not justify charging such low rates for vehicles. As for your "use of the shuttle bug", like any exploit, any player who uses it should be drawn, quartered, public humiliated, and then promptly have their accounts canceled.
SingSolo, you are missing the point!
A swoop is worth nothing in XP, while if you sell someone the resources they will get an equally good swoop, but also the XP from crafting the vehicle. I have an perfect example:
Gungan head statues:
People buy (or bought atleast) loads of gemstone for 3 cpu to get the experience from the statue and then tried to sell the statue at maybe 1 cpu.
Don't count that there's a different price for the resource, count that there's an additional price since you literally sell experience points.
. I don't think we as Artisans can be held solely responsible for the state of the economy at the moment. We aren't the only crafting class in the game.Two things:
One- vehicles need to be like other items and have quality matter, along with materials and workmanship.
Two- I think they are tolerating the shuttle vehcile repair exploit because vehicles still aren't storing on command.
These two things being fixed can allow economy minded artisans to "leverage" the rest of the artisans to fall in line and create a more stable vehicle market. It is only a matter of time before this can be ecomplished, how much time - harder to say.
SingSolo wrote:
Okay. The same crafter paying .3 CPU for resources sells those resources directly. They are now selling them for (at a minimum) 24000 and have earned a profit of 21500 profit. Which is roughly 896% profit. Okay.... which is better 540% profit or 896% profit?
Message Edited by mmaughme on 02-20-2004 02:05 PM
I agree with you. My point was that the raw resource is in more demand than the finished good (swoop). Therefore the raw resource would be worth more. It's a matter ofsupply and demand. There are some people that enjoy crafting and would be perfectly happy with a 540% profit. They are notlosing money by selling the swoop at 16000. If they wanted toearn more money they would be better off selling the resources and getting the 860% return.If they wanted to earn more profit still, they would use the resources to make armor, weapons, etc. Not everyone is trying to maximize profit, some just want enough to get along without becoming rich.
SingSolo wrote:
ShaoSanPoi wrote:
The cost of resources is also important.Mining your ownresources on average cost less than .3 cpu.Using that valuea swoopcost about 2500 credits to produce. If you sell it for 16000 credits you have earned 13500 credits or a 540% return on your investment. The crafter is making a decent profit.
Okay. The same crafter paying .3 CPU for resources sells those resources directly. They are now selling them for (at a minimum) 24000 and have earned a profit of 21500 profit. Which is roughly 896% profit. Okay.... which is better 540% profit or 896% profit?
With more Master Artisans out there, vehicles are easier to come by. If i'm desperate for cash and have to drop the proce on a Swoop to $10K to keep a harvester running to get the Carbonate Ore I need to make a CorellianCity Hallthat I'm planning on selling for $350K, then I'm going to make a deal. Or if I'm trying to sell for $24K and MonCal Worthington two tents over is selling the same quality swoops for $22K, I'm going to have to drop my price to $20K if I want the business.
I agree that as merchants we should work together to try and ensure some semblance of a stableeconomy, but there would always be someone trying to undercut everyone else. Was thinking about trying to find the merchants on Corellia on the Wanderhome server and see if we could meet and try and agree on set minimum prices on items like Vehicles, structures and high quality weapons and armor. Then I thought, who am I? I play on that server nearly every night, check harvesters, run some missions and craft a couple nights a week and try and harvest hide for the long armorsmith grind ahead. Currently I'm halfway through Architect and have to run an increasingly high number of missions just to keep maintenance on my house and harvesters taken care of and have a little pocket change for entertainers. Why would any of the merchants (read crafters) on the server listen to what I had to say? Most are in different guilds anyways, why would they want to band together and fix prices when you could shuttle to another planet and get the same item for half the price?
I try and be responsible when I craft and price something, but at times I give a better deal than I should and kick myself afterwards. Then I realize I'm still a little neutral fish in a big pond trying to stay away from the sharks...
Okay.... If it's about the money, then selling resources makes more sense than selling a finished product cheaper.
But, if it's about the CRAFTING assome suggest, then vehicles are the absolute worst thing you can make. After all, those 8000 resources could be used to craft something like 350 or more Mineral Survey Devices!!! You could be having 350 times the amount of crafting enjoyment. Vehicles use up so many resources so fast that there really isn't time to savor the crafting fun.
If it's about public service, then why the exorbitant 20k price? After all, if you're pricing low out of a genuine wish to provide vehicles to everyone, then you should charge just exactly what it costs you to harvest the resources -- go ahead and put your swoop in the bazaar for 6000, m'kay? Newbies want vehicles too!
Bah!
I sell vehicles for 40k, 60k, and 80k... I sell these off a vendor in the same room as vendors selling el-cheapo vehicles!!! Anything less than these prices and I'mwasting my resources and time -- no matter whether I'm in it for the profit or the crafting.
People can make up all the odd justifications they like, but when you've got twenty dollar bills in your pocket you just don't weave them into a necklace and sell it for $10. It's just not a very bright thing to do. 8000 resources is like 24,000 credits in your pocket. Weave it into a swoop and it's still worth AT LEAST 24,000 credits.