Artisan Archive

Good plan. I'm in.

Also, I plan to fill my two vendors with chance cubes for 1 credit each. Whats the max load on an NPC vendor? Hundreds, baby.

I will also change the name of my shop to Shop Closed, Sony and Koster Suxx.

In flashing red letters.

Not intending to flame -- I like your creativity -- but ultimately, this is a silly idea. So you fill up the database. What then? They'll just make additional changes to solve the problem.

This game is a business. Don't lose sight of that. If you don't like the changes, cancel your account and STOP PAYING THEM MONEY. That's how you have a say in the game -- your money.

Maybe they will read some posts, figure out the error of what they are doing to us and our gameplay, and be made to see a beter way. And maybe Monkies will fly out of me bum-bum. what do we have to loose...they dont listen to us as it is, perhaps a little non-violent protest is just what the doctor ordered. And believe me, this is the last step before cancelling subscriptions...problem is there are so many guilable people who want to be "Luke or Darth" that they will not feel the pinch if a large fragment left...see, in their eyes, theres a sucker born, or registered, every minute. No, this is the only way we are afraid to get their attention, get some needed attention over here, and start fixing...not moronicly nerfing the wrong people because its quick and easy.

while i agree that thisapproach is questionable i must say that it may be successful... sony doesn't want a few thousand lawsuits against paying customers, it is bad advertising

also, using all the available slots on the bazaar or in the bank isn't necesarily a hostile tactics, as it happens i'm using all my quota on the bazaar for honest trading

the bank is also almost full with the endless stream of resources spawning every week - and it's not junk

"Non-violent"? In what alternate reality is attempting to crash the game database "non-violent"?

What is being suggested here is nothing like a "nerf", it is a blatant attempt to crash a system. The only attention this is going to get from the developers is "hey, those players are being idiots". Anyone who does this should have their accounts cancelled immediately.

Threatening to try to overload the game database is not the solution to the proposed vendor charges. Doing so would hurt all of the players of this game.

If you want to protest, ask everyone stop using vendors entirely. That would be a true non-violent protest. And thats probably what would happen if the proposed change goes through anyway.

I don't think that there would be lawsuits, I think that anyone doing this would be quietly dropped from the game. And I don't think that anything like this could actually work; the current limits are in place for a reason. Finally, I have absolutely nothing against using your available slots for legitimate purposes; my bank was full for quite a while, until I got a house, which means I am now using even more storage on the server.

What I have a problem with is the idea of intentionally trying to hose up the database system as some sort of "protest" against a game mechanic change. You can bet every credit you have that if someday I try to put something in my bank account, which has plenty of room, and I can't because the database has been overloaded by some punks who think they are "protesting", I will consider it a hostile action. If the entire bazaar/inventory system crashes, and I can't put items up for sale, or I lose items, or whatever, I will **edit** well consider it a hostile action.

Anyway, I'm not really concerned that this will actually have any effect in game, I am more concerned with the image that ideas like this gives the developers of the player base. The vendor fees are excessive, and need to be addressed, but this is not the way to go about getting our concerns heard. This is only going to piss off the developers.

(Arfindel, please don't take this as a flame of your post, I realize this could be read that way and that isn't my intention at all)

Crashing the Database is not needed. Just a spike will be enough to get some attention maybe get some ideas listened too. Im tired of reading page after page of well developed suggestions...only to have them ignored. Where are the Devs on this...thats right, they drop the bomb and leave us to stew in our juices.

Are you really sonaive that you think any feedback is getting beyond this forum? Case in point: Resource container on npc merchant bug. We have been bringing it up...in detail week after week...it was going into corespondant reports. Then all of a sudden a its brought up on test center and the dev's say "Thank you for bringing this unknown problem to out attention" Unknown? Thread after thread on it here and its unknown? Yea, they care and listen...whatever.

So all youdreamers out there keepbelieving that anybody in a position of authoritycares about your well thought out and articulate posts. Perhaps, just Perhaps, a small jolt is needed to get certain parties of their butts...hopefully the anger and frustration that has led alott of people to get to the point where they are looking for otherways to get the dev's attention will be enough to at least get our voices heard. Wouldnt bet on it though. Being a sheep only gets you sheared...time perhaps to bite the shepard (Or at least growl a bit hehe).

First - I'm not 12 - I have two children older than that.

Second - My initial message referenced a thread on the Merchant Profession forum. That particular thread was started when someone from Sony (believe it was Q3PO) proposed the fee increase and requested feedback.

If you would take the time to look at that thread, you will note that there are over 27 PAGES of responses - I'm not sure how many messages there are per page, but it is easily over 300 replies.

Nearly all of them opposed and nearly all of them suggesting alternatives.

There has not be a single reply from Q3PO or anyone else to these replies.

As someone else here already mentioned, what I proposed was not "illegal" - I am not proposing exploits in any way, I am merely pointing out that they have serious database problems that go well beyond the vendor issue.

How many people are actually using all of their bank space? Certainly not 100% - probably not even close. I know players that were in the game for two weeks before they even knew they HAD a safe deposit box for storage.

The point of my message is that a band aid will not fix a root problem. They are not addressing the cause - poor database design and functionality. There is absolutely nothing wrong with putting up 1 credit items to advertise other items for sale. It is a creative solution to a problem the devs will create if the proceed with their intended course of action.

To anyone suggesting I "vote with my check book (or credit card or whatever)" and cancel my account.

You are high!

I have not invested hundreds of hours into this game to cancel my account and have them delete my character.

I will not be driven out of this game, but I **edited** will certainly continue to express my opinion and point out the flaws in their process.

The proposed vendor fee change is a band-aid on a spurting artery. They are not fixing the root cause of the problem.

In no way could I say that I understand how they have their database or interface designed. However, I do know databases and it would seem that there would be more efficient ways of running the bazaar and related interfaces.

• Give more filtering options before retrieving bazaar listings. If I want to see just the hide listings, I have to go through the "resource containers" tree first, which pulls down all of the resources on that vendor.


• Allow users to set a filter preference prior to pulling down a query. (That is, after all, what we are doing - pulling a query from a database)

Well, I have to admit that no, I did not read all 27 pages (or however many it is now) of that thread. However, I did get the basic idea that nobody likes the new fee costs. In fact, if you would read my post, you will see that I stated that I did not really agree with the new fees either. However, who and how many people don't want this change to happen is not really the issue I had with your post.

My issue is that you are using statements like "Fine - if they want to break our game - we can help them." and "If they want to nerf us, we can nerf right back."

I don't see any other way to interpret your post other than as advocating an attempt to cause the game database to break down in some fashion. If I am somehow misinterpreting you, please let us all know what you are actually advocating, and how it will accomplish your goal.

Breaking the database would be detrimental to each and every person playing this game. Imagine someone logging on one day to find that they can't access their free inventory space because of your little protest. Imagine someone logging in to find out that all of their items are gone because of database corruption or crash.

This has nothing to do with accepting bad programming. If their database isn't up to the task of handing the game load, that is a real problem and needs to be addressed. But threatening to "break" the game just because of a rule change that you don't agree with is just going to make us look bad.

Q did start that thread, and I have trouble believing that no one is paying attention to it; whether or not anyone from SOE has responded is irrelevant. They must be, in at least some fashion, interested in hearing what we have to say. The fact is that not all rule changes are going to be popular with the players.

To sum up - I don't agree with the proposed change, but threatening to break the system if the change is implemented is not the answer.

I posted a more detailed response in the Artisan board thread of the same name, which I won't repeat here, except to say there are certainly problems with the database, the root problems do need to be addressed, and it does seem like there are better methods for lots of the interactions with that database. But seeking to overload the database to point out it's flaws is not going to help anyone.

Ewach-

I am in NO WAY saying that you shouldn't express your opinions on these forums or point out flaws in the process. I do that too; it would be hypocritical of me to say you shouldn't.

I am, however, saying that expressed opinions are just that -- expressed opinions. They are not tools to force a change in how the game is set up.

I'm saying that there is a basic concept at work here that people tend to overlook, or consciously ignore: that is, that SWG is essentially the purchase of a client program to access a SOE/LA owned server, on which is provided a service, for which we pay a monthly fee. The devs have no moral, social, or religious obligation to fix things in the game. They have no obligation to do anything -- except make money for their employers. The best way to do this is by making a game that people like to play, and are willing to pay to play. So they certainly have an incentive to fix the game -- but they do not have an obligation to do so. At least not now.

When would they arguably have an obligation to do so? If the game becomes unprofitable because of the problem.

So what is the only way userscan users "force" the developers into changing/fixing a game? By stopping the cash flow if they don't.

Of course the problem is -- people are wickedly impatient, and seem to assume every issue can be fixed overnight -- and certainly within 2 days. Otherwise, it's a sign that the developers "don't care" about the problem. Which can result in a huge negative feedback loop: people see problems, and the devs truly want to fix them, but the fixes take time. So the impatient people get fed up and quit, and the game turns unprofitable, and potentially gets shut down.

Finally -- I, too, have spent a lot of time building up my character. As have many people. But if the change is game-breaking, and(as you seem to be arguing) playing won't be fun after the change, why should it matter how much time you put in? If you weren't having fun while leveling up -- you were wasting your time, and PAYING to waste your time to boot. If the game no longer is fun -- you will in the FUTURE be paying to waste your time. Either way, it's not a counterargument to "if the change breaks the game for you, cancel your account" strategy.

I'm not meaning to flame you, and I really hope you don't take this as such. My point is, as it was originally -- we, as players, have far less power and influence than many of us seem to believe. We only have one true "weapon" for change -- money. And if an issue is serious enough, you should not be afraid to use that weapon. In fact, its use is the only sensible strategy.

If the forthcoming NPC vendor fee proposal goes through, I call upon all players to help Merchants "Nert the database".

This fee would be tied to the value of items listed for sale on the vendor and is not economically feasible for crafters or general merchants.

This fee will BREAK the economy and the way you have been currently playing. Even if you are able to find vendors, they will have limited content.

Architects will not be able to afford to have high value items (factories, medium and large houses) listed on their vendors.

Tailors and Chefs - with a wide variety of products - will not be able to offer the range of their products because their low margins will not support having a large inventory of items for sale.

I could go on with more examples, but you should get the idea.

The general consensus, and implied by posts from Sony reps in the forum, are that this vendor fee (or "money sink", as they refer to it) is merely a misguided method to try and control the size and performance of a poorly designed database system.

Fine - if they want to break our game - we can help them.

If this goes through, I call upon every single person in this game to max out their offerings on the bazaar. Find a worthless knife drop on a dead evil hermit? Pick it up and list it for sale for 1 credit on the bazaar.

Is your bank not full, take that stack of 20 copper and split it into 20 stacks of 1 - please don't sit there with your bank at 10/100. They (the devs) gave you 100 spaces in your safe deposit box - go ahead an use it all.

If you have Business 3 or higher, load up your vendor with worthless items too. Craft some carbosyrups (they only take 6 flora resources to make) and put them up for sale at 1 credit.

If they want to nerf us, we can nerf right back.