Artisan Archive
Thread: Comments regarding Harvester Certification issue poll
I wanted to post a message addressing many of the concerns that have been expressed to me, either privately or publicly, regarding this issue of harvester certification.
Here are some questions (paraphrased) and my responses that have I have seen. These are but some of the questions I have seen, but I think they hit to the heart of several key issues.
1) Why are you having a poll for this issue and not for the other artisan issues?
Answer: Because this issue, beyond all of our others, is one people feel passionate about. It has proven to be divisive issue in the community, not just the artisan community, but the SWG community as a whole. To not open up a process by which people could express their preference would be, in my opinion, a disservice. If the community would like a poll for every issue, we can certainly do that. Many of them, say vehicle enhancements, don't really need a poll, in my opinion.
2) But you can't stop non-artisans from voting! Doesn't that invalidate the results?
Answer: Not necessarily. Let's consider that, say, 80% of the respondents are not artisans (I don't believe that is the real figure, I made it up). Let's also, for sake of argument, assume that all Yes votes are artisans. Meaning that non-artisans, if they vote, will be voting no. If the raw number of Yes votes is very small, then that indicates that the artisan community does not support this as an issue.
I toted the votes as of 4:08pm EST: Yes: 16 out of 138 messages. Unless we have 30 or less artisans on the forum, this seems like a clear mandate to not have this as an issue. (as a side note, I read 1 star posts)
3) Artisans are whiners who just want to nerf the whole game!
Answer: Well, I don't think so.
To be truthful, the thinking behind this proposal is sound. There are some real inequities in the way resource harvesting works. It is broad issue that needs some serious discussion and thought. Harvester certs are one proposal to deal with this, there are many others, many of them quite valid. We haven't seen the last of the resource harvesting issue, I believe. I expect we'll see many other proposals to address this. 4) You have no intention of taking this issue forward and never did.
Answer: Not so. In fact, this debate has been underscored and highlighted to the devs since it started. I have provided links to all relevant threads (note the influx of other correspondents, we all use the same communications channel) to the devs. I intend, after the debate has wound down, to summarize the best arguments on the issue and submit that as a document to the devs. Something as deep as a change to resource harvesting should be debated at the highest level with the biggest picture. In essence, regardless of the vote, this issue has been brought to the devs attention.
On a more personal level, I have been deeply impressed with the thought and care I saw in many of the posts on this issue. Many of you put a great deal into your arguments and it showed. The vast majority of the postings were mature and constructive and carried forth a skilled and effective debate. As the fundamental base profession of many of the elite crafting professions, we should strive to set an example to the others. Further, our position allows us a unique perspective as the 'jack of all trades' to offer testing, feedback, concerns, and enhancements that will have effects throughout the crafting elites.
To the non-artisans who weighed in on the issue: Most of you approached this professionally and with constructive feedback, I thank you. We are, after all, in this together.
I thank you.
Flames go below
Take care,
Yo Guru this Outta man I had no idea this issue would blow up like this when i posted my original thread "Master Artisan, the welfare profession?" Anyways just wanted to say thanx for your input into the issue. As far as certs go I am not necessarily for that, assuming there is a more balanced solution to the problem. The answer I dont have but using the forums as a think tank I thought was a good start.
Outta Control
Master Artisan/Merchant/Chef
Apprentice Gunfighter
As long as balance and integrity are brought to the system im not going to have to call everyone idiots and morons daily who argue with me for trying to make an argument for the good of the game.
Trolling a troller isnt wrong in my opinion and if im forced to read it i should be forced to make a not so pleasant rebuttal.
Anyways Guru I think you understand that I dont approve of you as the coorespondant. This thread maybe cleared up some of the disparities I seen with how you handle the forums and issues, and I now think you do a mediocre job instead of a very bad job. I will cancel my complaint to SOE that I have against you for the time being.
Regardless I dont think ill be around much longer in this community because the majority of the community is unconstructive, and they disagree with ideas that will balance the game just because they appear to take something away from them and they dont want to sacrifice something for game balance. I think someone made a good analogy that you cant go in the Rifleman forum and ask them to NERF the t-21 youll get flamed. Poeple dont want to look at the positives it would bring and would rather discount it because they just really have no conception of game balance or integrity. I also think ill be quitting because I set a personal deadline for the devs to get us an answer and we havent seen one yet.
Also note that tons of other issues go up on other professions top 5 daily that would affect other professions and that if known people would debate over. Its not the norm to be bias against 1 issue and have a community wide vote on wether it should be us artisans top 5. Not like being in the top 5 is an issue thats guaranateed to get implemented.
If the developers actually have read the arguments then why should I wait around? Whats the deal. And more importantly not saying anything means they agree with the excuse me ******'s in that it isnt needed or it would raise prices. That just means they arent very smart and I dont want to subscribe to a game I could design better myself. I want them on an equal playing field of ideals and not this secretive, undercover, false hope's all while hearing NOTHING.
IF its at their list of things to look at pfff. THis is a priority not a casual recommendation.
So there we have it, no you cant have my stuff and goodbye and enjoy the broken game and the unorganized, unproductive development team who doesnt have their priorities straight. I can understand being busy but I cant understand having an intelligent enough community relations person to get some kind of word to me. And last I checked you can talk and type at the same time so your not wasting any development time. WHat do you all think and when are we going to see it?
.........
Ill stick around until my subscription ends but if nothing is said goodbye. Thats incompetance if I ever seen it.
The arguments for and against have for the most part been intelligent and well thought out. Unfortunately, there are a select few who have chosen to diffuse the strength of their own arguments by degrading their ownposts with personal insults and random name-callingwhich is both completely unnecessary and sad to see.
I do not question the wisdom of the poll at all, and i'm glad many here have a place to both express their opinions and decide whether or not to take the question further, and where to take it. So thanks guru.
I will admit that I can see both sides of the harvester cert issue..it is a good question for discussion. But, as with many issues in the game, the end of hologrindingmay completely alter the landscape so to speak, and render this one a non-issue. I will not chose a side until then i think
As for the poll, i have 2 master artisan characters, and thus i have the supposed "right" to place a vote. Because the issue has the potential to affect numerous professions, i do not believe that it is an artisan only issue..and that is all i was voting on. I see it as a core systems issue.
I now return the thread to its regularly scheduled flame fest
I already did answer those questions to the best of my ability only knowing the number SOE had given me. Read the threads its there.
Message Edited by Sinist on 05-19-2004 02:34 PM
2) But you can't stop non-artisans from voting! Doesn't that invalidate the results?
Answer: Not necessarily. Let's consider that, say, 80% of the respondents are not artisans (I don't believe that is the real figure, I made it up). Let's also, for sake of argument, assume that all Yes votes are artisans. Meaning that non-artisans, if they vote, will be voting no. If the raw number of Yes votes is very small, then that indicates that the artisan community does not support this as an issue.
I toted the votes as of 4:08pm EST: Yes: 16 out of 138 messages. Unless we have 30 or less artisans on the forum, this seems like a clear mandate to not have this as an issue. (as a side note, I read 1 star posts)
GrafvonSoden wrote:I agree. My point there, though, is that it appears clear to me that the majority did not want me to take it up as a Top 5 issue.I've tried to remain silent on this issue most of the day, so as not to fan the flames of unrest. But I think if the majority of artisans want it brought up to the devs and posted as a question, you should do it. After all, you are the Artisan Correspondent, not the GCW or other correspondent. But didnt this question get asked in some form in the last bi-weekly 19 answers ?I'm sure the Devs would take it to the rest of the community before making decisions.On a side note. Even though I'm for it, I don't see it happening, for the simple reason that it is a major credit sink in the game mechanics.good luck on this
Also, they already know. I've made them aware of all the relevant threads on this issue.
Take care,
Actually, I didn't support Guru submitting this for vote initially, either.
I even sent him (her? sorry, dunno) a PM detailing why I thought it was a bad idea to post a poll on it.
And the response I got showed me that Guru clearly is a very good correspondent for these forums. Very thoughtful, very intelligent, and very caring about what the WHOLE artisan community thinks.
Just because a handful of posters here are very vocal does not make them right. Nor does it mean they represent the majority. It just means they're loud.
And, Sin, thanks for proving yet again that you have no intelligence backing your statements. That realization started for me when you made the post saying that factories should be certed at master elites because novice elites didn't need factories, solidified as you continued to use insult and whine as your only ammunition to support your views, and has crystallized with you ignoring my challenge to you to produce numbers and logic.
I'm done with you, because I haven't the patience to argue with fools.
I'm going to let some of you in on some facts that you don't know...
Guru has made several posts lately in the Correspondent forum lately regarding this issue and NOT ONE of them were against giving Artisan's the Harvestor Cert...so I think we can drop the idea that Guru is biased in any way...
The sad thing is that when Guru made his first post regarding the issue (the one that made me and many other Correspondents take note), he was proud at the excellent debate that his community was having on the subject...he seemed thrilled that everyone was not flaming others...He has been working hard to get Dev attention on this issue and at the same time he's being accused of having his own personal biased on the issue influcing the vote...It's sad that it's escalated to some calling other's "idiots" and "morons" just because they disagree...
I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from, but the majority of the Crafting Community (all of which are technically Artisans) appear to be against the idea...It's Guru's job to represent Community opinion, not personal opinion...and if you could see the great Correspondent Forum posts he's been making some folks would be begging his forgiveness for ever accusing him of anything...
garvin wrote:
I'm going to let some of you in on some facts that you don't know...
Guru has made several posts lately in the Correspondent forum lately regarding this issue and NOT ONE of them were against giving Artisan's the Harvestor Cert...so I think we can drop the idea that Guru is biased in any way...
The sad thing is that when Guru made his first post regarding the issue (the one that made me and many other Correspondents take note), he was proud at the excellent debate that his community was having on the subject...he seemed thrilled that everyone was not flaming others...He has been working hard to get Dev attention on this issue and at the same time he's being accused of having his own personal biased on the issue influcing the vote...It's sad that it's escalated to some calling other's "idiots" and "morons" just because they disagree...
I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from, but the majority of the Crafting Community (all of which are technically Artisans) appear to be against the idea...It's Guru's job to represent Community opinion, not personal opinion...and if you could see the great Correspondent Forum posts he's been making some folks would be begging his forgiveness for ever accusing him of anything...
Thank you for letting us in on some of the happenings we don't get to see. I, for one, never saw any bias in guru's posts and i'm not even sure what he possibly could have said to suggest that he was.