CUEmu - Thread Posts

GraySeven

Sat May 22, 2004 2:45 pm

Ok, most of you following this issue have seen my posts concerning Harvester Certs and the Miner profession, but I'm going to reiterate in hopes that this issue be put to bed...

Resources, in all their forms, are the base for the entire Player-Driven Economy. Should any small group gain an advantage in the procurement of these basic units of the economy, the Player-Driven Economy will be devestated. Many of you seem to believe that this would not be the case, but all who advocate this tend to ignore basic human nature in their arguments. YOU may not take advantage of your monopoly on resources, but other will not have your "honor".

Requiring a specific profession or professions to use harvesters will reduce the number of individuals able to acquire resources. A reduction in the available resources will increase the cost of these resources, especially the high-quality "named" resources (named meaning specific resource names called for in a schematic, such as Beryllius copper needed for composite armor). An increase in the cost per resource will increase the cost of items,whether or not the resources were actually purchased by the crafter, since the resources they use will have a higher worth than before, making their crafted goods worth more. Can you say "inflation"?

For those who don't believe that a reduced supply coupled with an unchanged demand will raise prices, I direct your attention to the price of gasoline......

Yes, in a capitalist society, supply and demand determine worth, EVEN IF IT IS A PERCIEVED WORTH. For those who remember, I direct your attention to the IPO of Boston Market.....

(For those that don't. Boston Market is a chain of roasted chicken franchises. The company made an IPO, an Initial Public Offering of stock which made it a publically traded company. The chicken is really, really good, and the price of the stock went ballistic in the first week or so of its offering, until the fervor died and people began to look at the way they did business, which cooled conciderably costing some people much money....)

And lastly, remember greed if you remember nothing else. If someone is given a big stick, they will be unable to NOT USE IT. If someone was giveneven a partial monopoly on resources, they would get what they good regardless of any harm it might do to others. Why woulda crafter care if a suit of good armor costs three times what it did...after all, they don't buy the stuff and the fellow crafter making it is making good money...if he harvests his own resources.

As an Artisan, you have a huge advantage in time, money and amount of resources harvested just because you can survey. This advantage is huge and is all the advantage that should be allowed concerning the harvesting of resources.

Oh, and a Miner profession would just plain kill everything. You give any one profession an extreme advantage in harvesting resources and BAM, its all over but the whining....

Lastly, remember that Artisan, whether you are Master or no, is still just a starting profession. Expecting to make loads of credits is unrealistic. No other starting profession does, so why should you? If you want to make the big bucks, you will need an Advanced Profession, plain and simple.

I have been a Master Artisan since shortly after the beginning, and Mastered three other crafting professions. I have never made a lot of money with my MA skills, making it all as a DE or Armorsmith. That is how it should be. The MA tree taught me about crafting, funded my initial foray into the higher crafting professions, and supplements my elite crafting. It helped me decide which professions to follow. It did what it was supposed to do. Master Marksmen can't take out the bigger creatures like a specialist weaponeer can, same goes for Brawling. Scout alone will not allow someone to harvest organics, you need a combat profession to compliment it, and successful Scouts have advanced combat professions. In the same vein, you can not expect MA to give you the world, only to help you get it through other means.

I await the one stars with pride, knowing the righteousness of my cause!

Vaylis Arturin, MA, MDE, MAS and his brother Vahl, Master Rifle, Scout and Ranger

Vahl Arturin - Elder Ranger, Elder Bounty Hunter, Elder Rifleman
&
Vaylis Arturin - Elder Armorsmith
Starsider
"The burning is love"

QuiJonOz

Sat May 22, 2004 3:13 pm

#2

I haven't followed this issue much, but I think Personal/Wind harvesters should be available to everyone, Medium/Solars at Survey II and Heavies/Fusions at Survey IV, or go Solar at I, Mediums at II, Fusion at III and Heavies at IV.

What this would impact are resource Barons with fleets of heavies placed by ghost characters. though to be honest, Survey IV isn't all that hard to get.

This isn't a big enough issue for me to wave a flag and jump up and down, but I see it along the same vein as Weapon Certs and CH requirements. My Artisan can't use a LLC and a rancor, so I don't see a problem having requirements to use more advanced harvesters.

No decay + uber loot = /spit on crafters

Fix the economy and give crafters their $$$ worth... give us real revamp.

Remember... to Cancel you have to go to Register Expansion in the Launchpad.

Daspeco

Sat May 22, 2004 3:27 pm

#3

Artisans can make their own array of things. If I am a medic and need a good food and chemical crafting tool(s), I go to an artisan. If I need a weapon, armor or clothing repair kit I go to an artisan. Master Artisan already make components that are needed in other advanced crafting professions (ie, the DE must be or use a MA for some components.).

I think harvester certification is rediculous. It will cut back on the business that Architect's have if only Artisan can use them. If you want to go so far as a certification for them, why not make it so Artisan can nly use personal harvester and Architects can use the med and large. This is as rediculous as saying only WS should be able to use weapons and AS use armor or DE use droids.

As it has been stated, no other starting profession can make much money either. Scout needs some sort of fighting skills. Master Marksman or Master Brawler cannot take on the big creatures or big hunting missions alone. Entertainers (even master entertainers) make no money as in medics. Docs make money, Dancers make money, Musicians make money. Advnce fighting skills can take big missions. Rangers, well they can harvest more but other than that they are much more deserving of attention than the artisans who feel they are left behind. Artisan is a starting profession. It is there to be a building block to something better. So, move on to something better and stop complaining and wanting to take away from everyone else. The people that it will hurt the most with certifications for harvesters are the people who make them and the consumer. The economy is going to be in a spin already after patch 10.

Devs clearly do not play their creations and are utter clueless as to the results of their nerfs. They seem to be in love with their ideas and ignore the results.

Choco'lat of Valcyn..... very soon to be Ex Sony customer.
Quote from Hairballs007

Davie
Chilastria

MarcoRenaldi

Sat May 22, 2004 3:28 pm

#4

QuiJonOz wrote:

I haven't followed this issue much, but I think Personal/Wind harvesters should be available to everyone, Medium/Solars at Survey II and Heavies/Fusions at Survey IV, or go Solar at I, Mediums at II, Fusion at III and Heavies at IV.

What this would impact are resource Barons with fleets of heavies placed by ghost characters. though to be honest, Survey IV isn't all that hard to get.

This isn't a big enough issue for me to wave a flag and jump up and down, but I see it along the same vein as Weapon Certs and CH requirements. My Artisan can't use a LLC and a rancor, so I don't see a problem having requirements to use more advanced harvesters.

Did you not read his post at all? A decrease of people harvesting resources means a decrease in resources. This translates into higher resource prices which then get put onto products so we have small houses selling for 50k just so crafters can cover costs.

Goda

Mayor of Tuskens Bane
Creating the N7 spinoff Project

hoenix
CEO GodaPower All Power 1.5 cpu

POWER TO THE PEOPLE

CityCowBoy

Sat May 22, 2004 3:30 pm

#5

GraySeven

Well put

I'm with you brother

I'm fairly certain though all of this if for not... If SOE axed the miner profession in beta... If everytime it is brought up in the Round Table discussions with TH and itis turned down...

Why would they bring it back in Artisan?!

Personally I got caught up in the emotion of it when I first heard about it... As a long time Master Bio-Engineering (my main account SomeUser) I already have a shortage of skill points compared to every other crafter.

The idea that I would have to loose another 15SPs on that character, that I dont have, just rubbed me the wrong way

Anyhow, IMHO, if the Artisan Correspondent submits it in their top 5 they are only wasting an issue.

It wont come to pass. The miner profession was deemed "Not fun" in beta for many various reasons... It isnt going to be "fun" in Artisan.

There **are** economic problems in SWG but this isnt the solution to it.

recapping what you said:

Artisan harvester cert CONS:

Devastated economy via funneling the "building blocks of the SWG economy" [resources] through one basic profession

Reduction in available high-end resources leading to:

Inflation. Just human nature that people will charge what they can. Even if it is just a perception of worth

Artisan is a basic profession. Even if one was to decide that the cert system was the way to go, this is too much power to be given to any basic profession. No where is there a mention of harvesters as being a tool for artisans... Hence there is no more logic in putting harvester certs in Artisan then there is to put it in Entertainer.

Quine Darkmire
Master Merchant/Master Artisan
Dantooine -787, 2931 (right outside the mining outpost)

CityCowBoy

Sat May 22, 2004 3:38 pm

#6

Oh yeah, the idea that giving everyone access to personal harvesters will keep the Artisans in "balance" is laughable.

Personals are worthless. I can put 10 personals on one good flora spawn and only get enough flora to run out 2 schematics... then I'm stuck waiting for another good spawn (sometimes weeks) unless I want to go to some noob Artisan who is going to try and sell me my flora, that I wasnt able to get enough of, for 30cpu.

So, I can now expect to pay 35cpu for meat and 30cpu for flora... Wow, that means each crate of BSN I make as a MBE will cost me 62.5k. That doesnt include my factory time or profit... Chefs already flip when they have to pay more the 40k for a crate of BSN...

Oh yeah, but since a chef is under Artisan (BE isnt), I'm sure I'll find some happy chefs to save me the trouble and money of making BSN and offer to let me make them free schematics so they can just manufacture their own.

Yes, I can see how this cert system is going to help already /sarcasm off

Quine Darkmire
Master Merchant/Master Artisan
Dantooine -787, 2931 (right outside the mining outpost)

HalasterTheBlack

Sat May 22, 2004 4:53 pm

#7

Oh, and a Miner profession would just plain kill everything. You give any one profession an extreme advantage in harvesting resources and BAM, its all over but the whining....

I disagree. Only one class can craft weapons. Only one can craft armor. Well, worthwhile armor and weapons anyway, I'm not talking CDEF and Bone here.

If a Miner profession were to be implemented in such a way as togenerate a flow of resources into the galaxies that is similar in volume to the way it is now, there would be none of the hyperinflation and monopolizing you talk about. Sure, there would be a smaller group obtaining and selling the resources, but it would be no different than the small group that makes and sells the weapons today. Because the *supply* would be the same.

Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
North Coronet Mall (244, -3540) - Weapons
South Coronet Mall (-100, -5760) - Resources
Theed, Naboo (-4370, 3425) - Powerups
Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer.

HalasterTheBlack

Sat May 22, 2004 4:58 pm

#8

I suppose I should say I agree with all the rest tho.

Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
North Coronet Mall (244, -3540) - Weapons
South Coronet Mall (-100, -5760) - Resources
Theed, Naboo (-4370, 3425) - Powerups
Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer.

CityCowBoy

Sat May 22, 2004 5:28 pm

#9

HalasterTheBlack wrote:

I disagree. Only one class can craft weapons. Only one can craft armor. Well, worthwhile armor and weapons anyway, I'm not talking CDEF and Bone here.

If a Miner profession were to be implemented in such a way as togenerate a flow of resources into the galaxies that is similar in volume to the way it is now, there would be none of the hyperinflation and monopolizing you talk about. Sure, there would be a smaller group obtaining and selling the resources, but it would be no different than the small group that makes and sells the weapons today. Because the *supply* would be the same.

What again is the pointin creating a profession that would basically retain the outflow of resources at their current level? Wasnt the logic behind this that thereare too many resources and thus there needs to be a reduction via limiting people from mining?

Furthermore, even assuming you keep productions at their current level in the Artisan tree, via increased BERs, you would still see inflation.

Why? Even if Volume is not effected the pool of players who have access to these resources would be, likely, greatly diminished. Less competition always equals higher prices as people will always charge as much as they can get.

However, it is doubtful that current productions levels will be maintained with a cert system... At the very lest there would be a huge dip due to lot swapping being harder to accomplish...

So what you **WILL** end up with is:

Lower volume of resources

Narrow player base that will have control over the surplus of all resources

Add that with human nature (people will always charge as much as they can)and this is a no-brainer.

Quine Darkmire
Master Merchant/Master Artisan
Dantooine -787, 2931 (right outside the mining outpost)

HalasterTheBlack

Sat May 22, 2004 7:21 pm

#10

CityCowBoy wrote:

HalasterTheBlack wrote:

I disagree. Only one class can craft weapons. Only one can craft armor. Well, worthwhile armor and weapons anyway, I'm not talking CDEF and Bone here.

If a Miner profession were to be implemented in such a way as togenerate a flow of resources into the galaxies that is similar in volume to the way it is now, there would be none of the hyperinflation and monopolizing you talk about. Sure, there would be a smaller group obtaining and selling the resources, but it would be no different than the small group that makes and sells the weapons today. Because the *supply* would be the same.

What again is the pointin creating a profession that would basically retain the outflow of resources at their current level? Wasnt the logic behind this that thereare too many resources and thus there needs to be a reduction via limiting people from mining?

That was never MY logic. I do not believe there are too many resources making their way into the galaxies now.

Furthermore, even assuming you keep productions at their current level in the Artisan tree, via increased BERs, you would still see inflation.

Why? Even if Volume is not effected the pool of players who have access to these resources would be, likely, greatly diminished. Less competition always equals higher prices as people will always charge as much as they can get.

No. If you leave the capacity the same, some might try to raise prices for a while, but they'll be quickly brought back in line as competition for business forces the prices back down. You will definitely see a short-lived spike in prices. But after the miners achieve mastery (if it's implemented), you'll see prices normalize again. That's the way competition works in a free market economy. The trick is to balance it so that the new miner class has at least as much capacity as we have now without certs. (Note: I only floated the miner idea to shut the whiners up. Even though I would truly enjoy playing one, I don't think they're needed.)

However, it is doubtful that current productions levels will be maintained with a cert system... At the very lest there would be a huge dip due to lot swapping being harder to accomplish...

So what you **WILL** end up with is:

Lower volume of resources

Narrow player base that will have control over the surplus of all resources

Add that with human nature (people will always charge as much as they can)and this is a no-brainer.

Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
North Coronet Mall (244, -3540) - Weapons
South Coronet Mall (-100, -5760) - Resources
Theed, Naboo (-4370, 3425) - Powerups
Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer.

Srednii

Sat May 22, 2004 9:32 pm

#11

If there was a miner elite I would drop my long unused M.Tailor skills in a heartbeat! .

------------------------------------------------------------

Sre'dni Vashtar - Bria
sv Armoury -4976, 2712 Corellia

Whitewind

Sun May 23, 2004 4:27 am

#12

amen to that

all the certs would do is cause the rich to get richer and poor to become poorer.

__________a______________________________________________
Ice-Fire
Xel'Dar-IceFire Pharmaceuticals · Healing for the Masses
XCS
Mos Themis, Tatooine · Shadowfire

cadof

Sun May 23, 2004 8:28 am

#13

Like most of the combat professions I want the best of both styles of game play but I cannot make money in combat as a combat class can make credits in crafting. Is that right no! Combat professions can go drop ten heavy miners go kill some a npc that drops uber loot that goes for 200k+ on the action boards and missions 80k+ a day then a week passes go to the miners that they have drop off and pull up 1000000k at 2 CPU. And you call crafters greedy. Also crafterare greedy and has more than he or she can chew. With to many lots taking up with storage houses, factors and merchant tents. One man or woman cannot run a corporation by there self. And most of the elite crafters have so many recourses and components now they can last a year. Come on. If you want to minor give up the skill points or lots and extract minerals then do so. All I want to see it go up with the surveying skill tree that is 24 skill points to use every miner out there. Surveying skill tree is the essayist to get in the game. This action will only hurt the rich and give to the pore. Greed has nothing or does it. But as it stands now rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

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