Artisan Archive
Thread: Focused Discussion: Grind.
How do you define 'grind'?
Is grinding a problem in SWG? Why?
Do you grind? If so, is it the way you like to play, or an efficent means to an end?
Bianca Minola
How do you define 'grind'?
I define grinding as the deliberate process of creating items that have no intrinsic value to me in the game by and of themselves, except insomuch as they produce an XP payout that advances me to the next level of play.
Whilst this is more an item in the crafting professions, Scouts have to grind trapping and survival XP. Combat classes have to grind creature kills etc.
Is grinding a problem in SWG? Why?
Depends how you define problem. When playing a pistoleer, killing things gives me the XP I need. Whilst it is still a 'grind' to have to chew through 40 billion creatures to reach master, this is part and parcel of the gameplay and so it is not really a problem. I get to do what I always do and occasionally, train.
Medic provides a better example. For three of the medic trees you simply have to heal people. Heal people, get experience, pretty soon you're master eligible on those branches of the tree. Organic chemistry, however, requires you to craft medicines. This is not quite so much fun as the returns on each item in XP is much lower. Heal a decent black wound - get over 150 xp. Create a stimpack A - not quite such a good return.
Looking more closely at the artisan class, things are not so bad. Now - granted, I did my grind startingday 2 (couldn't get online day 1) with meds for medic and only later with artisan. When I was doing my artisan grinding, installations gave architect XP. So I crafted bone chestplates - which required organics - in large amounts - which I couldn't afford to buy - so I had to take scout - and grind up scout to get enough bone to grind up artisan. And there were no safe crafting missions to pay me so I could buy steel or bone. This was not nice. Now it's a quick trip up engineering and then a few wind gens and you're master. So for artisans, it is not such a problem grinding. Sample steel, run a few delivery missions and you're there.
Post artisan (I'm chasing droid engineer) it's worse. Much worse. Again, combat classes get most of their xp by doing what they like to do. Doctors are the same. CH's get xp by handling creatures. No expensive resources that may or may not exist to go tame cowardly gurrecks required.
I get to made **TADA** MSE droids. Lots of MSE droids. 48500 xp points of MSE droids at about 140 xp per droid. Can't sell 'em. Most days can't give 'em away. No fun. Just back to the definition of grind - making stuff with no value to me other than the (low) xp return I get for creating it so I can get to make stuff people do want.
And people are justified. If you can get a MSE droid or a nifty looking probot - which do you buy? Money is no object for most folks so it's natural. If you get a droid with a med module and one gives you med 55% and another 110% - which do you pay for? Obvious - the higher one. So I get no business as a novice. Novice doctors get tipped. Novice CH's get creatures. Novice pistolleers can shoot things. Artisan classes get to make even more stuff on practice mode because noone wants anything they can make. As an aside, the droids not recharging in the datapad bug is a godsend. Finally something I can make that people actually want!
Do you grind? If so, is it the way you like to play, or an efficent means to an end?
Do I have a choice? Yeah, I grind. Not insanely. I haven't ground up an elite level or two in one night or whatever - but I have set up macros that I just need to click to add ingredients. Not fun. Not enjoyable. Not immersive - but necessary for me to master the game to the point where I can get the enjoyment of making things that people want to and will actually use.
Bela
How do you define 'grind'?
I'm just gonna steel Beladan's definition.
Grinding is the deliberate process of creating items that have no intrinsic value in the game by and of themselves, except insomuch as they produce an XP payout that advances me to the next level of play.
Is grinding a problem in SWG?
Yes
Why?
Because people who do it tend to place no value in the item beyond the XP it produces and quite often they are happy to sell those items for a fraction of their actual value.
Do you grind? If so, is it the way you like to play, or an efficent means to an end?
Nope, I just played the game doing the stuff I found interesting. I managed to finally make master artisan a week or so ago after playing the game for 10 or 11 weeks. Of course most of my problem reaching Master was in raising enough apprentice XP to actually get the slot. I had reached all top levels about 3 weeks ago. Still not a stellar rise but given that I play the game around 10 hours a week or less and spend most of my time running around the wilds of Talus being a scout I don't think it's too bad.
Grinding:
The act of producing the same item repeatedly with the sole intention of gaining enough xp to move on to a new skill (the item being used is normally chosen because it either gives the most xp of the most xp per resource unit)
Is it a problem:
Yes and no (allow me to explain)
Its a problem if people feel they need to grind because there are no items worth making within their current schematics set (most of the artisan boxes could be said to be guilty of this). Its also a problem when the grinder subsequently dumps the end result into the economy at a stupidly low price (although the practice option has helped here)
Its not a problem if its just a caseof the player wanting to be at a higher level of skill and grinding to get there (and not dumping the results on the economy at a stupidly low price)
Is this a problem?
Yes and no - it can defintely be annoying at times and one go through lots of materials (and therefore money) for crafters, but going up elite profession skill trees shouldn't be easy. I think there's a pretty good job making starter professions not be too bad to grind through.
In order to grind, you need materials. There are about 3 ways to get these - mine it yourself, buy it from someone or have them given to you. Unless you have others helping you out, it's tough do this. Both mining it and buying require at least some amount of money. This can be gotten through missions or by selling items. Artisian missions are okay - survey ones were good when the minimum distance was only like 500m. The problem with selling items is it's not really worth it until you obtain all the possible experimentation points - while you might be able to sell a lesser quality item for cheaper than someone with full experimentation points, most people are going to want to pay the litte bit more and get the better quality thing.
Do I grind? Not really anymore - I'm a miner, I don't really have a reason to grind - but I have done it in order to get novice DE. For me, it's an effecient means to an end and nothing else.
The deliberate act of repeatedly experiencing the same content many times, solo, only for the bennefit of character EXP.
Crafting 1000 fiberplast panels by hand, hunting chubbas, slicing CDEF pistols, macro dancing.
Is grinding a problem in SWG? Why?
Yes, but only when it bores the player, and only if it gives a player an advantage over another.
First when a "grind" isn't boring or isn't attractive then it isn't really a grind anymore. You could say that combat grind really isn't a "grind" because for the most part it's not boring. Crafting grind is boring because it doesn't produce anything useful.
The problem is there's not enough useful items at lower levels. Lower-quality repair tools are self-sabbotage, batteries come in stacks that are too small, low level armor & weapons are a joke (no universal grenades), food is bugged (quickest way to force you to relog), and BE pets are boring (for now, soon they'll grind on carrion spat mounts).
To eliminate grind, give us:
1) repair tools that always work (just "how well" is the question, say 100 max loss at novice and 20 max loss at master).
2) 10-count batteries
3) artisan level kinetic armor
4) decent disposable weapons
5) fix food & stats
6) more interesting & useful BE pets (put some rancor DNA in that jax, he'll be a CL15 baby with 100% energy armor... faster & slower mounts).
7) the ability to get better resoruces without waiting weeks
8) easier access to better assembly & experimentation point bonuses (more skill tape drops, crafting zones in cities sound great)
Second: currently weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, tailors, droid engineers, and architects have a serious advantage over bio-engineers, doctors, combat medics, and chefs.
Those first 5 can use an automated grind process to easily master their profession. The only requirement is a lot of saved up metal.
Entertainers have a simmilar advantage. They can automate their leveling.
Do you grind?
Combat: The only currently boring part is travel time. There are enough obstacles to any combat grind to make it either impossible or not boring. There are issues with a few classes (going to TKA novice, going to Master Rifle, BH investigation), but to me those indicate broken classes.
Crafting: not recently, but when I do it is somewhat boring.
It is very tempting to grind using the current method of automation to quickly reach master armorsmith.
Grinding when you get down to it is just an elabrit way to buy XP. i.e. in otder to grind you need matierals and to get them you need money. money to buy resources ot to buy a harvester, and oh yeah you need money to run the harvester(s). you also need to buy or harvest power for said hervester(s), and that costs money. In the end you ether have a lot of CDEF crap (that knowbody will buy ) or you "practice". and the resources just go into never-never land.
It costs alot of money for a crafter of any kind to gtind at least for the first few boxes. My Idea for Artisan is get rid of the CDEF weapons you get those when you start ( why would you buy them again ) and give us something in thair place, something just a little better. and insted of giving the componant stuff to the masters, give it to the novice level artisans to "grind" with then at leaset someone will buy the stuff. also make the low level items quality depend on the resources used only. so they have a chance of crafting something that a master would buy for his "finished" products. just a thought.....
One thing I am willing to credit the Devs with was getting General crafting Xp for the personal harvesters... that helped alot. those we can sell
How do you define 'grind'?
I'll point to the points above and say "What they said" for this one.
Do you grind? If so, is it the way you like to play, or an efficent means to an end?
This past weekend was the first time that I sat down to actually grind. I wanted to skill up Dirty Fighting II, Slicing III, and Int Firearms. So I camped outside of Dearic and shot Chuncker Mooches for 117xp a piece grinding Dirty Fighting, and in the downtimes churned out swords and weapon upgrade kits so I could slice and destroy the swords.
It's not the way I usually play. I was actually kind of lucky in that I got the last little bit I needed for Eng IV through some Usage XP of some extra-dimentional source.
But I think I'm going to have to start grinding more regularly. I would like to eventually be able to sell something that I craft on a regular basis, and I just can't do that till I grind up the techniques tree.
How do you define 'grind'?
Already been said plenty, I like the one in Tmon's the best
Is grinding a problem in SWG? Why?
Not as much of a problem as I thought it would be. The people that do grind usually get so bored by the time they hit master in a profession that they give it up within a few weeks. However, there are some intrinsic problems with the selling of things for a ridiculously low value and the lack of understanding of the profession by many grinders confusing many people about the final product. It is also against the true intent of the game I believe, and devalues the meaning of being a "Master" in a profession.
Do you grind? If so, is it the way you like to play, or an efficent means to an end?
I am COMPLETELY against grinding. I have worked my butt off over the last few months to hit master (just made it last week) and have sold at least 90% of everything I have made. In doing such I have built a nice reputation for myself and feel that I know my product, how to represent it, and how to better it.
LMAO, I wondered what the term "grind" meant. I'd heard it, but didn't realize I was doing it. My problem has been that I can't put enough items up for sale at one time. I've been making items that I canproduce quickly and with the fewest resources, and then destroying the excess items that I can't sell and don't have room for in my inventory. ( Heartbreaking for a novice, but better for the economy...lol) At any rate, I've seen the same "problem" in other games. In my opinion, it's not a problem. Without doing the things that earn you the skills, and going through the hoops of being new, what else is there? It's a game, I try to enjoy the process...I'll be a Master and bored with that soon enough. 
Cerene Starborne
Tyrena, Corellia, Bria
I'll skip the definition and get right to the interesting stuff:
I grind when I get impatient, which is usually when I'm very close to a certain threshold of points. Other than that, I just play, make good stuff, sell it as best I can. I often sell at 'stupidly low prices' because it's what moves the merchandise, which is the main advantage a low-level artisan gets. If higher-level artisans don't like it, they can buy my stuff and resell it at a higher cost.
The cap on bazaar items makes selling low-level items (especially non-combat items) difficult. I've thought about ways to fix this: a "total price" cap instead of "total item" cap, that would let people sell more wares cheaper; "bundling" of similar goods by the same person into a single listing; bazaar costs as a percentage of total price instead of a straight 20 credits, etc. New artisans are often not savvy enough to hook up with merchants, so bazaar is the default, but it can betoo limitingwith the current rules.
Is grinding a problem? I think it's a problem that players create for themselves, but it could be alleviated withsome enhancementsto design. "Just playing" can level someone up pretty fast, but they need to be willing to dabble in other pursuits and let the artisan opportunities come to them. Better artisan missions (being discussed in another topic) would create immediate, short-term reasons to craft without depending on a flooded market. Bazaar "want ads" could give artisans something to shoot for too.
I think merchants could help a lot too -- look for novice artisans and give them orders to fulfill.Maybe a merchant/artisan connection could be designed -- a section on the bazaar, or a special terminal.
Grind, see above.
I didnt mind it to much, but it wasnt until I almost hit master DE when I stopped grinding because I could get the xp through the demand of my items. That to me is the biggest problem almost nothing is worth selling until you hit master (or get to a level were stacking modules gives you the best). Since I hit master DE I have not made lower level modules unless I needed to stack them. People would rather pay a few (and I mean few) credits more to get the best, why buy a lvl 4 med mod driod when lvl 6 is just a few hundred to a few thousand differance (I know prices vary). So basically anything lower than master DE or very close will have trouble selling driods that are worth much (I know there are a few items, seekers and what not that sell as novice) in part because credits are so easy to come by. This is my understanding of it anyways, I could be way off its been awhile since I was novice.
As for master artisan I dont think I ever sold a single thing, this was of course before batteries were needed. I just grabbed wood and steel and did some ax grinding. Not sure if these techniques are even possible anymore but thats what i did way back in the day.
The definition of grind has pretty much been set.
As for it being a problem: For Artisan alone - No. The problem occurs when an Artisan desires to go to an elite profession. The points needed almost certainly require grinding. Simply put, there is no source of experience that allows for growth in a moderate time frame. If UXP were to give a higher return then Artisans could craft survey tools, repair tools et. al. and gain experience that they could apply towards an elite while adventuring. Even an increaase in points earned for harvesters would be welcome. From what I have observed there are no 'continuing' sources of UXP for an Artisan. The Use XP seems to be awarded when a harveter is set down. There is no accumilating points for the harvesters continuing usage. I am sure there are other such examples. It is understandable that single use items (droid batteries, fire works etc) only grant points once. But several tool and reusable objects do not seem to provide a continuing source of UXP.
Yes, I grind. I 'ground' my way up to Architect on a two resource item using cheap ore and practicing. I gained the 33k xp it took to get Novice Architect that way. Then I ground my way up Architect to be able to make the larger harvesters. Once I go to making the harvesters I did not need to grind. The act of creating the things I and my guild needed provided the points to continue up in architecture. I have spent an appreciable amount of time prepping for vehicles. I can and will take Novice Vehicle(or whatever it is called) as soon as it is available.
I do like the ability to make things in SWG. There are several things that are tedious to make. The dedicationI have put into it has led others in the architecture tree to come to me for these more tedious items. So while it is a means to an end it is also a way to seperate out the 'Crafters' like me from the less dedicated (or patient) players.
Spryte [Haven] Master Artisan <4,3,4,4> Architect - Corellia - Scylla