Artisan Archive
Thread: A toy, or a game.
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BiancaMinola
Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:42 pm
#1
I think the majority of the disputes in this forum, are based on differences in opinion as to what SWG should be.
Some folks want a 'toy'. Somewhere that they can just go to and fool around. Doing whatever they want, whenever they want. These are the folks who want to see skill points increased, skills decertified, etc.
Some folks want a 'game'. With rulesets, with competition. Where having a million credits means you have planned, saved, made a good decision or 10. These are the folks who argue for certs, new professions, meaningful skillsets, a meaningful economy (and combat for that matter).
What side of the fence are you on? Do you think my distinction between the two is foolish? Well, how so?
Do youthink there is any challenge in SWG? Do you consider it to be a game or a toy? How many SWG multi-millionaires do you know? Is there a problem with an economy that ensureseveryone (who makes any effort at all) will be so wildly rich that prices of anything is meaningless?
Bianca Minola
Laffite
Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:13 pm
#2
I tend to think the general idea for the artisan is thought of differently. For a lot of people (ie dedicated WS or AS only), artisan is justa stepping stone to the elite profession, where most of the items he/she needs can be made by themselves. A true artisan needs to have something that makes his or her profession unique and not just a branch to climb, which is where you tend to get the cert supporters.
Giamai
Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:57 pm
#3
BiancaMinola wrote:
I think the majority of the disputes in this forum, are based on differences in opinion as to what SWG should be.
Some folks want a 'toy'. Somewhere that they can just go to and fool around. Doing whatever they want, whenever they want. These are the folks who want to see skill points increased, skills decertified, etc.
Some folks want a 'game'. With rulesets, with competition. Where having a million credits means you have planned, saved, made a good decision or 10. These are the folks who argue for certs, new professions, meaningful skillsets, a meaningful economy (and combat for that matter).
wishing to have a game with rules and competition and striving for advancement does not go hand in hand with arguing for certifications. you imply that thisgoes with everything else you favor and that the converse is just frivolous...this is an unfair judgement on your part. the same goes for "meaningful economy" an undefined term which again you put hand in hand with harvester certifications, again an unfair judgement on your part.
What side of the fence are you on? Do you think my distinction between the two is foolish? Well, how so?
Do youthink there is any challenge in SWG? Do you consider it to be a game or a toy? How many SWG multi-millionaires do you know? Is there a problem with an economy that ensureseveryone (who makes any effort at all) will be so wildly rich that prices of anything is meaningless?
Bianca Minola
i think the lines you have drawn are a tad too restrictive,people will fall into the middle as should be true with any mixed group of people with different ideas on what can entail a good game with many levels and things to explore. there are gray areas here and implying that there are only 2 ways to play swg as if they are a right way and wrong way is insulting. with any mixed group of people, the solution to all problems is through discussion and compromise. categorizing everyone along polarizing lines is not constructive.
Sweeny7
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:57 pm
#4
I agree with this. I think there are people in the middle in a whole LOT of different playing styles. Specifying just two of the possibilities is not a good way to look at it.
Giamai wrote:
i think the lines you have drawn are a tad too restrictive,people will fall into the middle as should be true with any mixed group of people with different ideas on what can entail a good game with many levels and things to explore. there are gray areas here and implying that there are only 2 ways to play swg as if they are a right way and wrong way is insulting. with any mixed group of people, the solution to all problems is through discussion and compromise. categorizing everyone along polarizing lines is not constructive.
CPark
Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:20 pm
#5
Your question isn't foolish -- rather it's central to any multiplayer online game. But it is more complicated than your distinction between toy and game.
The developers of SWG are struggling with all the ways hundreds of thousands of people like to play -- and play means something a little different to all of them. A guide is the various kinds of computer games -- first person shooter, strategy, role playing, and the like. Each addresses a different audience. And in some ways SWG is trying to provide something for all of them while remaining true to the collaborative vision expected of an on-line community.
I suspect some of the responses just reflect that underlying complexity and not anything wrong with your question. It's just very difficult getting and answer to "how do you like to play?" when play can mean so many different things.
As for prices: my opinion is that we shouldn't get too caught up in the high numbers -- if all prices are high then their absolute value isn't important. Prices are still meaningful, they are just high. That being said, there are certainly problems with the economy. One of the Friday features dealt with the developer views on the economy. It's worth checking out.
The developers of SWG are struggling with all the ways hundreds of thousands of people like to play -- and play means something a little different to all of them. A guide is the various kinds of computer games -- first person shooter, strategy, role playing, and the like. Each addresses a different audience. And in some ways SWG is trying to provide something for all of them while remaining true to the collaborative vision expected of an on-line community.
I suspect some of the responses just reflect that underlying complexity and not anything wrong with your question. It's just very difficult getting and answer to "how do you like to play?" when play can mean so many different things.
As for prices: my opinion is that we shouldn't get too caught up in the high numbers -- if all prices are high then their absolute value isn't important. Prices are still meaningful, they are just high. That being said, there are certainly problems with the economy. One of the Friday features dealt with the developer views on the economy. It's worth checking out.
Srednii
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:13 am
#7
I think the majority of the disputes in this forum, are based on differences in opinion as to what SWG should be.
Some folks want to have fun and play the game the way it is. These people don't see anything wrong with having mining done by everyone. They may accept that an elite miner class might be prefferable, but they don't think harvesters should be certed to a novice proffession. These are the folks who accept that balance doesn't include giving a huge amount of power to a starting class.
Some folks want to nerf people who don't play the way they envision the game should be played.These people make up fancifull arguments and fantastic claims to support their viewpoint when all it boils down to is trying to nerf other people so they don't have to compete with anyone else.
What side of the fence are you on? Do you think my distinction between the two is foolish? Well, how so?
Do youthink there is any challenge in SWG? Are you content, or do you whine for nerfs? How many SWG multi-millionaires do you know? Is there a problem with an economy if everyone is a millionaire? Could the excess money be from the duping like the devs said? If everyone's a multi-millionaire then I'd guess that's not being "wildly rich" but in fact means everyones on the same level. 5 zero's or 6 zero's. As long as everyone's in the same boat does it matter?
Srednii
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:25 am
#8
BiancaMinola wrote:
Do youthink there is any challenge in SWG? Do you consider it to be a game or a toy? How many SWG multi-millionaires do you know? Is there a problem with an economy that ensureseveryone (who makes any effort at all) will be so wildly rich that prices of anything is meaningless?
I'd just like to point this out. If everyone has millions, then that isn't rich. If everyone has millions then it's far away from being wildly rich.
And resource selling doesn't generate money the way missions do. All it does is move money around the player base. And drains money from the economy with maintenance. So if everyone has equal oportunity to access this market then why isn't everyone "wildly rich". If it's so easy that everyone can use it to get wildly rich then why isn't everyone "wildly rich"?
If everyone is doing this then that just means we're all middle class. If everyone has 10 million credits then that means 10 million credits is average, not rich. The inflation that makes it so that 10 million is average instead of say 100k or even 1million was caused by duping, and just by the fact that as time goes by inflation occurs.
People who are wildly rich are the people who put a huge amount of work into becoming so. Crafting is the more common way of doing this. But everyone has access to the ability to run a large scale mining operation and do so as well. The reason everyone doesn't is because it takes a lot of effort. And some people just can't stand to see other people getting ahead via their own sweat and hard work and want to punish them and take away that ability by certing harvs to artisan only.
BiancaMinola
Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:12 am
#9
" People who are wildly rich are the people who put a huge amount of work into becoming so."
OK,
BiancaMinola
Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:28 am
#10
Stupid forum,
Anyway, I'm beginning to think that you are not interested in ANY debate or discussion Srednii.
You talk about the 'wildly rich'being those who put in a huge amount of work. How so? Name something that takes EFFORT in SWG. There are plenty of things that take time, but I have never been 'challenged' by anything.
Now, the point of my post was to get a feeling for what the community feels about the current 'game'. There is an argument to be made for lowering all of the 'barriers' and letting everyone do whatever they want, and there is an argument for 'nerfing' (your word) everyone into rigid rulesets. The argument that I am having problems with is that everything is OK. That the imbalances createdin the past should ALWAYS remain, because Combatfolks have a 'right' to compete economically - and Artisan types (novice and elite)DONOT have similar rights in the combat side of the game.
If you aren't interested in the discussion, click on over to another one. If you are, make your points and defend them. This cynical 'I'm right - everyone who disagrees is wrong' attitude of yours is childish. Grow up, engage the debate, or SHUT UP.
Bianca Minola
Srednii
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:33 pm
#11
Oh come on bianca, this whole thread of yours here is a "cynical 'I'm right - everyone who disagrees is wrong' " post. You portrayed anyone who disagree's with your viewpoint as a childish greedy person who doesn't care about balance.
You want to debate, but you attacked me without replying to my points. And then you told me to shut up. lol. That's not very consitant 
I made my point in my second post (it's 1 starred as well as my first thanks oodles) where I pointed out that everyone isn't wildly rich, that if everyone has millions, then that's middle class and you're complaining about nothing. You may have made obscene amounts of money, but since everyone and their dog isn't doing so as well I fail to see the imbalance. You just seem to have the know how and the drive to reap the wealth. Congratulations on how uber you are. But quit acting like every noob and their brother is doing so as well.
thanks oodles) where I pointed out that everyone isn't wildly rich, that if everyone has millions, then that's middle class and you're complaining about nothing. You may have made obscene amounts of money, but since everyone and their dog isn't doing so as well I fail to see the imbalance. You just seem to have the know how and the drive to reap the wealth. Congratulations on how uber you are. But quit acting like every noob and their brother is doing so as well.Oh and now you want artisan to be able to compete in combat????
"That the imbalances createdin the past should ALWAYS remain, because Combatfolks have a 'right' to compete economically - and Artisan types (novice and elite)DONOT have similar rights in the combat side of the game."
Everyone should have the ability to make money in the game. Right now there are three general ways to make money. Missions, crafting, and selling resources. Combat types have some pretty heavy money making abilities with missions (which is getting heavily nerfed when they do the combat rebalance), and artisans can make money with missions as well, tho nowhere near as much. Crafters can make tons of money with craftables, it's unarguable that crafters are the richest people in the game.
And Everyone can make money selling resources (tho artisans have a leg up by being able to survey).
Now I see nothing wrong with that. Combat typesget to fight stuff and make money, crafting typesget to craft stuff and make money. Andanyone who wants to put the time and effort into it, can make money with mining.
So farthe pro cert crowd still hasn't put forward an argument that hasn't been shot down, and this thread isn't any different.
BiancaMinola
Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:14 pm
#12
Go back and read THIS post - I'm not making any cert arguments pro or con. My language may be skewed by my viewpoints, but the point of this post is to find out whether or not the community is leaning towards a totally open game where folks can do whatever they want, or a game with defined rulesets.
My problem with your crowd, is that you are arguing that everything is just fine and dandy - and everything can be solved by stopping cross-server lot trades. Every discussion you enter into use the same arguments - anyone who wants change is a greedy whiner, and combats will quit if they are required to invest in Artisan related skillpoints to do Artisan related activities.
I chose not to reply to your 'points' because they are not relevant to the discussion in this thread.
Where do you stand on the issue at hand? If you want to debate certs again, start another thread on it.
Bianca Minola
Giamai
Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:50 pm
#13
bianca,
your language is very skewed and reflects an apparent inability to believe that anyone may fall in between your two possibilities. this is simply an unfair question, attempting to force people into molds that is your side and the other side...if you want an open discussion of play styles, you should reconsider your own question and the motives behind it.
in terms of harvester certifications, if you read every single post, there were actually more than 2 sides... there were some interesting suggestions to modify or otherwise interpret the entire harvester certification issue that were drowned out in the arguments that ensued. this too is a reflection of why your "question" here is unfair, this is a large group of people, pigeonholing them is not helpful.
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