Artisan Archive
Thread: Question of the Day 7-31-03 Miner Profession
Perhaps your spreadsheet and my spreadsheet should talk then.
I happened to be in Beta 3, but never saw the Miner Skill Tree. However, I bought this game because of its many crafting choices and to finally play a game that mimicked UOs style of mining/crafting economies.
The devs took out 3 Professions because the internal QA Team deemed them "not fun". The three professions were: Miner (for Inorganics,etc.), Farmer (For Water,Organics,etc.), and the Industrialist (Factory Production). Why wasn't it fun for them? They didn't have 10,000 people to play with. As a result, harvester certification/efficiency was removed and factory production given to everyone.
What makes a Miner fun?
Its the game within the game (aka, the meta-game), folks. The devs pulled off a good system where the meta-game works. On the surface, you are harvesting and selling your product, but there is a whole market out there with competition. Will the buyer take 2 or 3cr/unit? Will that resource be extinct tomorrow and be worth double what it is today? When will the next resource of that type spawn? Will it be better? Can I speculate and buy out this other guy selling at 2 and resell it to my favorite weapons dealer at 4?
And then there is the whole stock-market aspect of it all. Its like a trading-card game where certain cards become out of print forever and become insanely valuable (while the rest just roll along and are worthless). It captures the wholeGold Mining speculationthat went on in the1800s.I went to sell my resources to an Armorsmith recently. (Neutronium Steel) She didn't buy, but someone sold her 75k units of various metals right as I was stand there! I asked the seller why, and they did it for 2credits/resource! So guess what? I buy everything from that miner and resell it where I can at 3 or higher. I've actually created a chain of supply within my own profession!
Finally, there is the social aspect. I haven't gained 1 XP in 3 days because all I did was pick up resources, sell them to my regular customers, browse the bazaar for deals (and I have shopping lists for my regular customers, so I know what I can buy and make a small profit with), find other miners and buy bulk from them (bulk speculation), chat with my customers, and run a full-on business! If this isn't community development, I don't know what is. The Entertainers have quite a community and social circle too, they have a profession that helps promote the community and 'fun' that they have. If they didn't have a Musician or Dancer line, they would STILL be there entertaining and socializing!
Miners as they stand now are fun. Additional skills would only be there to enhance the profession, promote dependency.
Holocron said, at the end of Beta, implementing the 3 classes would be the first thing he would look at once the game goes live. He didn't say they would come, but he did say he would revisit the issue and try to make them more 'fun'.
So how do you make Miner more 'fun'? Even trickier, how do you do this without hurting/destroying what is there?
Everyone wants to be able to differentiate themselves from their fellow players in some way. Be it race, class, height, hair, skills, item posessions, etc. One current complaint is: "I am currently playing like a Miner, but everyone can be one, for free, with no cost of skill or repurcussions. So one way to enhance enjoyment/balance would be to add certifications to the Harvesters. Place Personal Harvesters somewhere in the Novice Artisan or Surveying lines. This wouldforce pure combat players (like the oft-mentioned BH) Reserve Medium/Large Harvesters to the Miner/Farmer classes.
Did you know that Weapons previously had no certifications? They were added during Beta during the last 2 weeks of testing.
So then the Miner profession is all about differentiation. There have been many suggestions, but here are a few that I like the most:
Metallurgy/Forging- The ability to create new compounds and alloys from existing metals/fuels/plastics. The modern-day "Alchemist", if you will. This has its own set of issues across the board and would be no small feat to implement, but the rewards of providing better materials to crafters would be fun, and good for the pocketbook.
Harvester Efficiency - Almost a given. Akin to the Experimentation/Assembly lines in the crafting professions. Efficiency could mean many things like harvest rates, maintenance costs, power costs.
Harvester Management - Ability to remotely manage power, maintenance fees, and resource changing. Tough sell, since Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru had to go out and manage the harvesters.... Unless they had droids that could speak Bacci! (Give those Heavy Lifter droids something to do!). Should have to be counter-balanced with running around/vehicles since there should be risk/reward.
Advanced Survey Techniques - Access to additional tools, taking core samples, extended range, (exclude sampling speed to making existing survey/sampling better and not faster to limit AFK Samplers to their current levels.)
This is just four of the many ideas out there. All of them have their own balancing issues and personal demons to deal with.
The miner profession *IS* fun, Devs. Bring back to Miner to enhance the flavor and differentiate it.
Hi,
Back in beta when they dropped the miner class I fully supported that change. The profession did nothing. All it did was steal skill points while providing nothing but slightly increased extraction as you advanced. Now that I have been a miner for a while, I can see some definite areas where a miner skill could become an "active" skill, which is my requirement for it being a full profession.
The miner profession would have 4 disciplines.
I) Mining Technology
This discipline would be designed to allow the miner to give a harvester a temporary 24 hr boost. This would work a lot like slicing. The purpose is to allow the miner to leverage "active" pursuit of their profession by giving them a benefit for visiting their harvesters on a regular basis.
They could also boost other people's harvesters. This would provide them a service they can provide to others. I envision the miner choosing to boost extraction, reduce power consumption, or decrease maintenance cost.
A final ability of this discipline would be to reduce the footprint of the larger harvesters allowing them to be placed where other people wouldnt otherwise be able to do so.
II) Advanced Surveying Techniques
This would basically allow the miner even larger survey areas then they have now. I spend a LOT of time looking for better nodes. Anything that would make that process more efficientwould be an active benefit to the miner.
I also think there could be "deep" nodes that could only be found by miners using advanced deep resource survey equipment. This would give miners access to higher percentage nodes others cant find. To support this, I would recommend that "regular" nodes be reduced.
III) Mining Automation
This would allow the miner to remotely manage his harvesters. I think that miners should be able to receive data on a galactic level. They should be able to issue commands (like switch resources) only from the planet the harvester is located.
IV) Mining efficiency
This would be the passive discipline that would basically encompass all of the "old" miner profession. To support it, I recommend that the extraction rate at survey IV should be cut in half. The current extraction rate would be attained at efficiency IV. It would reduce maintenance rates, increase production, and decrease power consumption.
Perhaps this skill could also grant additional lots for use with mining equipment.
Mastery) A master would be able to extract at a higher rate for lower cost. They would be able to automate the process so they could manage their harvesters from a distance. They would be able to visit their harvesters to boost extraction. They will be able to survey with a much improved capability over a non-miner.
Regards,
Artuk
Artuk wrote:
I) Mining Technology
This discipline ...
Having read some other suggestions,I support the idea that miners would gain certifications to use the more advanced harvesters. I think personal harvesters would be as they are. I think medium harvesters would come in at Mining Tech I, large haresters at Mining Tech III, Deep Core comes in at Master Miner.
Regards,
Artuk
Crossbreed wrote:
We're discussing how to implement, but I haven't read WHY we should implement a profession that was nixed in beta.
Just a discussion to see the pro and cons and to see if everyone feels a miner class is needed and how they would do it or to say no its not needed and post your views why.
Ive read some really interesting responses so far. Keep them coming.
Jasarina wrote:
Crossbreed wrote:
We're discussing how to implement, but I haven't read WHY we should implement a profession that was nixed in beta.
Just a discussion to see the pro and cons and to see if everyone feels a miner class is needed and how they would do it or to say no its not needed and post your views why.
Ive read some really interesting responses so far. Keep them coming.
As to WHY
When I first started playing this game, I thought the most useless profession in the game was miner. I couldnt imagine how anyone could possibly want to do that. I will admit, I was wrong. My vision at the time was centered around surveying. Why anyone would want to sit and sample all day was beyond me.
However, what I didnt know was how the whole harvester thing would play out. Crafting only reached its currently "buggy but somewhat playable" state late in the game. Harvesters seemed a luxury. Now.. well..we havea full scale economy. We have people buying and selling resources on a scale that never occured in beta. We actually have reasonable discussions about pricing.. nobody knew how to price. You would just shove stuff in the bazaar (which rarely worked) and hope someone would buy.
The other problem was that missions were so lucrative that selling resources was useless. In Beta.. you could make more money taking shuttles. In release, you need to DO something to make a credit.
That crafters would actually need more resources then they could produce themselves was something I suggested at one point and was met with skepticism. Its true in release, at least so far. As a result.. where before we had nothing.. now we suddenly have an interesting past time.
We must preserve the demand by ensuring full time crafters need to aquire more resources then they can use themselves.
It may not be interesting to everyone. For me, in these games, I get a lot of enjoyment just wandering around checking things out. Being a miner in this game is ideal for that kind of game play. I travel all over the place. See interesting things. Sometimes I have to defend myself. Its kind of fun. Sometimes not, but all these games have their ups and downs.
The other thing is that I like crafting.. but not enough to advance to a masteryin an advanced crafting profession. I like buying and selling, I dont like clicking. This profession is ideal for that. Maybe someday I will be a master architect, or usedspeeder dealer, who knows. To that end.. I have combined active resource management with merchant skills. I have a store. I buy and sell. I meet people. I predict demand. Dump over supply. Factor in energy.
I joked with some friends that I never expected that being a Warcraft Peon would be fun, but it is. So thats why I want to BE a miner where I didnt before.
For the profession being nixed.. thats easy. It was nixed because the profession did nothing. Not because it wasnt something people wanted. It just had no substance. Everything that miner did, you can do now with survey. In the end, it was either drop it or leave it as it was. As it was, the first thing people would have done when they made master miner is complain that the profession does nothing. it was a good choice. That the entire profession was able to be collapsed to a single discipline speaks for how empty it was.
A profession has to be active.
So now we are in a position where we have seen mining in an active economy. We have seen supply and demand. We all have experience managing harvesters. Some of us are crafters, some of just deal in resources. Now I think we are in a position to come up with some good -active- skills to justify the existence of a miner profession.
What IS a miner?
They are part surveyer. This is what we want to expand into a profession.
They arepart combat character. Travelling is dangerous!
They are part merchant. Buying and selling is the root of this profession.
They are part Explorer. Travelling the countryside and seeing new things is part of the job.
Thats my .02 in answer to Crossbreed. Sorry it got a little wordy. Its the beer talking 
Regards,
Artuk
btw- I still never sample. I still think thats boring as toast.
They should make sample be just that. One unit. A sample. So you can see the properties of something before you place a harvester.
Regards,
Artuk
But um.. I am a miner already.
Survey 4.
Thats a miner to me.
And I don't want to have to master a whole another skill line.
Surveying is fine and so are harvesters.
I mine to supplement my income and because I like crafting too.
We don't need a miner skill tree.
As for why, a lot of people play the role already, giving them a skill tree could make it more enjoyable for them.
That said I still fear economic impact. My feared glut of useless steel aside, another thing to consider is that in implementing miner you'll like either cause a shortage or a glut of resources. A shortage because BH's etc. can't set down personal harvestors and no one else can use mediums, a glut because miners will do what they do well. Either way the problems are obvious, although a glut will only be a problem for the miners.
As for the bazaar prices, you've obviously never been to Kauri, either that our you could raise your prices and get away with it. In my galaxy we have a simple policy, 3 cr per resources bulk, god knows how high it gets for anything less.
Also, consider this. If you're talking about the scale of work that, for example an architect, does even a thousand resources is a drop in the bucket. Architects need 10's of thousands of units of ore. Clearly the bazaar in it's current state cannot fill this need.
Miners as a practice profession are already in the game and doing quite well. At least I'm certainly paying mine plenty of credits!
The miner profession game mechanic isn't in the game and I don't see a problem with that. Right now the situation allows someone to be a miner without having to spend any skill points on it. Why (re)create agame mechanic that requires you to spend points? People are mining now and making a go of it without game mechanics.
And what would a miner profession take away from the rest of us? People already whinge enough about the horror of spending 20 minutes twice a week to relocate harvestors, are you going to take away their ability to use harvestors without more certifications? I think people are going to get awfully upset about that.
Crossbreed wrote:
We're discussing how to implement, but I haven't read WHY we should implement a profession that was nixed in beta.
Agreed. I'm starting to wonder if all this discussion is doing any good at all. Other than to convince me that we DON'T need a miner profession after all. I'd like some reference point as to what exactly the miner profession was in beta. If it was exactly what we've been describing, then it obviously didn't work. At any rate, I've decided that it seems unnecessary and would either cause artisans to be nerfed, or the materials market to become extremely inflated.
The pro would be much the same as the pro for the merchant profession. It would add more to the game, and might make mining more enjoyable. It would also give mining legitimacy (I've read many a "All you did was place a harvestor, you don't have a right tocharge that!")
That said when you're talking about resources in my opinion you don't mess with that, except maybe to tweak. I also agree with Kasuta (sp?) that it could very well be an Artisan nerf (just what we need) or lead to an inflated market.
We're getting a nice undercurrent of "it ain't broke - don't fix it". OK, I will fully admit that the current system is functional. However, let me at least submit this single problem for feedback -
Currently I need no skill at all to harvest. I can either place harvesters and let someone else admin them for me. Or alternatively, I can place harvesters and switch resources during resource shifts when appropriate or simply follow the herd (when they move their wind generators, I move mine). Now I haven't tested it, but I don't believe that I even need Novice Artisan to do this. I simply plunk the harvester down and use the harvester to tell me what to harvest (highest percentages).
Is this a problem? Should anyone be able to run any harvester without restriction, particularly when they don't actually have to "run" it, merely get someone else to admin it. I would love to hear if everyone believes that a Master Bounty Hunter with 0 artisan skills should be able to run 10 heavy harvesters (whether for profit, to feed a PA, or to fee a friend architect).
Let's say that a miner class isn't desirable (and it definitely isn't in the short-term until they get other broken classes fixed). Is there a decent short-term alternative? For example, can we tie harvester certificates to surveying skill? Level II = personal, Level III = medium, Level IV = heavy? Then to be a miner (which is certainly a valid thing to do even in the current system), you would at least have to have some skill investment. Again, there is an economic impact of taking out the really casual harvester, so you might have to up the output (and maintenance costs) of harvesters by some %. Does this make any sense? If you want harvest, invest something (which artisans already have anyway). By reducing the number of harvesters, you would also have a nice side effect of reducing the number of eyesores on the landscapes.
Given upfront cash (which is often available via PA's, friends, whatever), what canyou currentlydo profitably in this game without any investment of skill points at all? To build anything (whether it's Bofa treats or Stimpacks or camps), I have to have a skill. To do destroy missions (with any effectiveness) I need marksman or brawler. To gets tips from dancing, I need entertainment. I guess I can do delivery missions with no skill. Or I can buy low on the bazaar and sell high. Oh yeah,I can alsorun a 10 heavy harvester operation. Yeah, that makes sense.