Artisan Archive

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CapnKate wrote:
There's a number of things to respond to, including the direct question following my post, but I believe i can sum up all of my replies:

It is literally impossible for a Doctor to harvest all the necessary resources for the profession on ten lots. So whatever solution presents itself must take this into account. The idea of taking up less lots when certified isn't bad... except that this probably won't stop the x-server trading. maybe reduce it a bit.

But we're thinking in proper directions, for which i'm grateful. Accidentally crippling legitimate players that rely on some aspects of the current system would be a terrible thing to see happen.

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Actually it is not impossible for a doctor to harvest all the resourses they need, even if you have a need for many different resources you just need to plan and i'll demonstrate by example:

We'll assume you have enough harvesters of each type to save worrying about what type of harvester you need for esach resource.

• Lets assume you need20 resources A-T


• You need twice as much A-H as you do M-T


• You need thrice as much I-L as you do M-T


• You have6 lots free for harvesting (a house and two factories)


• So you need harvesters on I-L for three times as long as on M-P and on A-H for twice as long

We Harvest:

• Day 1 - I, J, A, B, C & M


• Day 2- I, J, A, B, C & N


• Day 3 - I, J, D, E, F & O


• Day 4 - K, L, D, E, F & P


• Day 5 - K, L, G, H, Q & R


• Day 6 - K, L, G, H, S & T

So over the 6 day period we have harvested enough of each of 20 resources to make a set amount of items. Now it would be more economic to run over weeks rather than days, so once you have done this once and can start selling your services with the meds you have made you can switch to a weekly cycle or similar.

If you need more resources than you can pull in using this method then you must be making plenty of cash selling the products or services (if you're not then you need to increase your prices) and so can go out and buy the extra resources you need on the open market.

The system was designed to work with limited lots and does work with limited lots, you just need to learn to use the lots you have to their best effectivness.

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lisasdarren wrote:

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CapnKate wrote:
There's a number of things to respond to, including the direct question following my post, but I believe i can sum up all of my replies:

It is literally impossible for a Doctor to harvest all the necessary resources for the profession on ten lots. So whatever solution presents itself must take this into account. The idea of taking up less lots when certified isn't bad... except that this probably won't stop the x-server trading. maybe reduce it a bit.

But we're thinking in proper directions, for which i'm grateful. Accidentally crippling legitimate players that rely on some aspects of the current system would be a terrible thing to see happen.

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Actually it is not impossible for a doctor to harvest all the resourses they need, even if you have a need for many different resources you just need to plan and i'll demonstrate by example:

We'll assume you have enough harvesters of each type to save worrying about what type of harvester you need for esach resource.

• Lets assume you need20 resources A-T


• You need twice as much A-H as you do M-T


• You need thrice as much I-L as you do M-T


• You have6 lots free for harvesting (a house and two factories)


• So you need harvesters on I-L for three times as long as on M-P and on A-H for twice as long

We Harvest:

• Day 1 - I, J, A, B, C & M


• Day 2- I, J, A, B, C & N


• Day 3 - I, J, D, E, F & O


• Day 4 - K, L, D, E, F & P


• Day 5 - K, L, G, H, Q & R


• Day 6 - K, L, G, H, S & T

So over the 6 day period we have harvested enough of each of 20 resources to make a set amount of items. Now it would be more economic to run over weeks rather than days, so once you have done this once and can start selling your services with the meds you have made you can switch to a weekly cycle or similar.

If you need more resources than you can pull in using this method then you must be making plenty of cash selling the products or services (if you're not then you need to increase your prices) and so can go out and buy the extra resources you need on the open market.

The system was designed to work with limited lots and does work with limited lots, you just need to learn to use the lots you have to their best effectivness.

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HalasterTheBlack wrote:

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lisasdarren wrote:

[Snip] All my stuff about successfully managing resource harvesting using limited lots

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That's all more work / effort that what I get *paid* to do IRL. Why the hell am I gonna pay SOE for the privelege of doing that?

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Because that is what crafting in SWG is about, its about resource management and that is one of two big skills of being a successful crafter, knowing what to collect and when.

Unless I am missing something the skills that make a good crafter are knowing what to experiment and how much and locating / using the relevant resources for the job at hand. (I'm talking crafting here, not sales or anything else)

If you don't want to do this then why are you playing a crafter?

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Bermag wrote:

I fail to see the point in changing anything of this. Either with lot trades or certification for harvesters. The cure will most certainly be worse than the disease.

What is the effect of we having to much mining capacity (by either having lot trades or non-artisans harvesting).

Does it cause abundant resources? yes - no problem. This will lower the profits of mining and in the long run it will make people want to deal with harvesting (which take a lot of time) and resource prices will balance.

Monopoly on resources? Will increase if cerification or lot trades are stopped. Now everyone is able to mine large quantities. If this get limited it will only increase the power of guilds or people working in a group. Or the rich that can buy a lot of resources. Now the starting crafter can compete by mining his own stuff and get a good deal of resources.

Godo resources last for ever? Well they might but there is usually not a perfect resource. I was collecting resources for 6 months before I got MWS. Had good quantities of most of the best resources. Then in two weeks a bunch of better resources spawned which had better stats making the old obsolete. That is always the danger of stock-piling. Thats is why many sell some of there best resources since one day they would be obsolete. None pays well for the second best stuff if the best is available.

Many miners have left the business since it get harder and harder to sell your resources. Static harvesters are "free" lot-wise but still cost money (and time) to maintain. If sales go down (or get low profit) there are no reason to keep those harvesters.

As I see it most of these suggestion will only make the game less fun than it is today. Let the game be self regulating. That will work the best in the long-run.

And i am not arguing that an established master should have no advantages over a complete beginner, of course they should and will. They will have had a chance to mine resources that might still be better than what is available (just not millions of units, maybe a hundred thousand or so), they will have the knowledge of how to get the best results from experimentation, they will have more looted components, and they will have an established customer base.

But imagine if you could only produce a tenth of the items you do today (not less variety, just less of each type) and there were only a few other smiths making the same quality stuff, but you sold them at ten times the price, you would make more money and owning a Siyber weapon would be really prestigious. Only the richest and biggest PVPers would buy from you and all the rest of the playerbase would go to buy the lower quality weapons sold by other weaponsmiths, at a lower price. Wouldn't it make you feel good to know that your brand named weapons were the most sought after on the server?

The best kit should not be easy to obtain, if something is easy to get it loses its value. Having goals to try and reach gives the game meaning and makes it fun. It would give all combat players something to aspire to, they want to own a Siyber (or equivelant) weapon and will then know they have joined the best of the best.

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joined42904 wrote:

Halaster and Bermag,

The cure is necessary and will be way better than the disease. As St. Gabriel continually points out, a crafting utopia is created by limited resources, not be widely available resources. Resource gluts such as what we currently have reduce the value of crafting and cause prices to bottom out.

Show me a single official post or statement that says this is a problem.

You don't think there is a resource glut? Just look at the price of swoops and other vehicles on every server. I think all of the devs will probably tell you that vehicles were intended to sell for more than that.

Or could it be that vehicles are cheap because of a shoddy implementation - weak experimentation that provides zero choices to the buyer aside from how durable the vehicle is, coupled with the fact that vehicles never really need to be replaced because they're repairable?

If there were not a resource glut, the price of swoops would not be what it is. Weaponsmiths would not come to the board and complain about how hard it is for them to mine because they have so many houses chock full of resources. (Remember the WS with two merchant tents and two full small houses? I do.)

Those statements contradict each other. It *is* hard for my WS to mine now, which means I have to buy resources from miners. Resources are still pretty pricey in my galaxy. I don't see a glut.

I don't think the resource glut needs to be examined quantitatively yet. Not until resource decay begins to be considered. Because it is so obvious qualitatively.

Doubletalk. Again, show me an official statement that there are too many resources in the galaxy. Changing the game based upon a small percentage of players' "feelings" is very dangerous.

The irony here is that good resources aren't in superabundance (either that or they are owned by folks who aren't putting them into the market as in the case of the weaponsmith mentioned previously.)

Actually, the resources I have in stock were bought from the market; not mined by me.

How can anyone say there isn't a resource glut when folks have multiple houses full of resources? And that doesn't even count all the guild storage houses. Or the resources folks put on vendors not to sell them but to avoid having them take up space in their houses.

With the quantity of resources it takes to make certain items, you HAVE to stockpile or you will not be able to make good quality resources in the quantity you could sell. If I only had resources that a single medium house could hold, for example, I could make top-quality weapons for about a month worth of customers. Then what? I stop making quality weapons and screw my customers? Or do I go out of business? Have you ever crafted?

I would like to see anyone who doesn't think there is a resource glut argue their position...that there isn't currently a glut...rather than say "wait and see if there's one after JTL" or try to shift the burden the the other side of the argument. We have evidence for our side. Let's see some evidence for yours.

Let's see... I still have to buy resources and the competition for those resources is so fierce that miners charge up to 5cpu for *current spawns*. Since that 5cpu is 100x cost of mining, I'd say that's not a glut to the point that it impacts pricing. You do not have a shred evidence even close that compelling and that's just a quick top-of-my head response.

There will be no monopoly if there are certifications and lot trades are stopped and hopefully admin removed. Why? Because this means that anyone with the certification can mine. And others can't. There are plenty of people who would go get whatever certification were required to mine. With admin removed, there are no economies of scale. Takes the same time per harv to run 40 harvs as to run 10.

If only artisans are certified to mine then only Master Artisans with no other Elite crafting prof will mine for sale. All Elite crafting profs will mine for themselves. Now you have a very small group of people (those with MA and no other Master crafting title) supplying resources. You have effectively cut the resource influx to 10% of what it is now. I don't see how the market can afford 50cpu for current resources, especially when that means 200k price tag on a single T21 rifle. And those are conservative estimates of what would happen - striaight from the 90% reduction in influx to the 10x price tag on finished goods.

Three bad ideas don't make one good idea. But three good ideas are better than one.

Three good ideas are certainly better than one. Too bad there aren't *any* in your post...

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HalasterTheBlack wrote:

With the quantity of resources it takes to make certain items, you HAVE to stockpile or you will not be able to make good quality resources in the quantity you could sell. If I only had resources that a single medium house could hold, for example, I could make top-quality weapons for about a month worth of customers.

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How true is this statement really? I understand that weaponsmiths have the most varied resource requirements in the game (so you need lots of unique stacks of resources). But how many resources are actually used to create a weapon? How much factory time is taken up in creating the weapon?

I ask this because doctor crafting isfairlyresource intensive. It takes around 100 resources and 11 minutes of factory time to create (considering all subcomponents) a typical Stim B, which I can sell by the crate of 50. I mention the factory time, becuase this implies that each factory that I run consumes about 13,000 resources a day (this basically holds true for things other than Stim Bs as well). This is incidentally the number of resources I can expect to harvest daily with a heavy harvester, so if I harvest purely for myself, I need 1 harvester lot for each factory.

A house full of resources (15 million units) allows me to run a single factory basically non-stop for 1150 days (over 3 years). I could run 3 factories for 1 year straight from that one house. Granted, I am not completely effecient in my resource storage, but I am reasonably efficient (I have frequently sold stub stacks to make room for 100K stacks).

Let's say, theoretically, that youwere forced to run your weaponsmith business on 10 lots - no rented lots and no lots from alts. You could run a reasonable practice with a 2 lot house, 2 factories, and 4 harvester lots and still have 2 lots leftover to do whatever. If you could find a good resource supplier (admittedly harder in a non-swap world), you could up the storage and factories and reduce the harvesters. If 2 factories aren't enough to meet demand, I strongly suspect that other weaponsmiths would fill the void. Sure, they may not be as good as you, but the needed weapons would get made one way or another.

Anyway, whether they keep swapped lots or remove them, the economy of the game will be fine. There will be short-term disruptions, but people will fill the gap. Resource prices may go up, but eventually more miners will make up much of the difference.

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Happymob wrote:

[snip]

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Your numbers are a glaring generalization that do not address specific component requirements. Just because a 2 lot house can theoretically hold 15 million units does not mean it hold 15 million units of what you need.

I can fill a 2 lot (150 unit) house up with resources and components in one day alone doing nothing but macro sampling. I am a Master Artisan, Master Architect and Master Chef. My resource requirements are vast and diverse. Just because you want everyone in the game to have 10 lots and play casually doesn't make you right. The game has rules, and I abide by them. I don't need care bears telling me to not be so successful.

Oh, try running an Architect business with 10 lots. Tell me how many repeat customers you get when it takes you a week to make one heavy harvestor.

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