Artisan Archive
Thread: Harvester limitations
Synra,
(quotes from Synara in brackets)
[[Sigh, once again, I am trying to make a valid and reasonable argument only to have agressive and offencive replies.]]
Funny, I've proven my point twice. Proving you wrong twice. In a non-offensive manner yet you don't respond to MY valid and reasonable arguements. Perhaps it is because you have no rebuttal for the truth.
Gogo1924 -
[[Let me one of the few to agree with Synra. It's quite evident that a lot of you skipped high school economics. His arguements are valid and most of you are dismissing them on the notion of greed. It's actually quite the contrary. These so-called "Miners" are the greedy type. It's an easy road to get some good money]]
After reading this post I wonder if you graduated high school too. See, what Synra wants is to keep everyone but himself (or all craftsmen) from harvesting. That way he doesn't have to pay for materials. All of the profit and costs go directly to HIM and HIS business. THAT my friend is the utmost expression of greed.
These so-called "Miners" are not greedy. We just want to make some extra cash. The biggest money makers are craftsmen. Fighters make a pittance on grinding mission after mission. Loot is non-existent. If we want to make a little extra cash then tough s**t. Cry me a river.
Both of you go re-read my 2 earlier posts and try to argue out of my points. I'd love to hear why this is such a problem when with the current system you can pass the cost of resources onto customers (like a normal business) and concentrate on crafting full-time and still make the same profit.
Geez, you still just cant see my point, or you just dont want to.
You keep trying toargue that there is nothing wrong with just anyone being able to collect and sell materials. Try to understand me this time.Obtaining and selling of resources in star wars galaxies is a form of business. You obtain something to sell, then sell it.
However, SWG follows a certain premise, that business is not just some stupid hobby that your level 50 paladin can take up on the side when youare not outhunting.
The business aspects of SWG are supposed to be far more then just a side hobby. They created entire "character classes" to make the businessside of SWG just as important and viable of a careeras the fighting side. If I want to run a weapon business, in order to do that I probablyneed to take up weaponsmithing in order to supply my business. I have to spend a whole lot of skill points to gain the ability to sell weapons. The same goes for Clothing, Armor,Structures, etc. You can not be a master bounty hunter and still be able toproduce and sell droids on a regular basis. It is not possible, and it is not supposed to be possible.
"Mining" is the one businessof the game that completely breaks this rule. With mining,anyone can obtain and sell the product.With the current"Mining" business, you are not required to obtain any skills. Anyone can takeonany skills they feel like, and they can become a "master miner" with just a little time, and a little effort, a little brains, and however many lots they wish to dedicate to it.
"Mining" is a business. As a business, it should follow the same rules as the rest of the businesses in this game.
If you think thatit is ok for any combat playerto be able to run a business without needing toobtain skill blocks for it, then Imust believe that you would also like to see all the rest of the business types turned into "freebie hobbies" available to just anyone who feels like doing them for a little extra cash.
The harvesting and selling of resources currently is a trademost similar to the crappy "side hobby"trades of other games, and most dissimilar to the well designed trades of SWG.
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As someone above clearly pointed out, in a weeks time at 3 credits per unit and 70% concentration, someone can make 1.1 million credits. And you look at this as a low figure?
As I have tried to make it clear before this point, I am not some newbie. I am a master artisan, master droid engineer, novice merchant and novice architect, and I reallyhave my act in gear. I am no foolish player as some of the posters have tried to make me look like.
But I have been playing somewhat hardcore since release. 1.1 million credits per week isa fantasy. I have been playing 2 months now and I have not yet hit the 1 million mark. Infact, if I bought materials from "miners" I would actualy be dirt poor right now, while those "Miners" are rolling in their piles of millions of credits.
As I said before, I am actualy usualy the first person to build on the best resource spots. I am not asking for harvester certifications because of greed orI want to corner the market or something.
I want harvester certifications, because the way I am seeing it, it is a completely free tradeskill available to every single player, and it is one of the most profitable trade. This is justnot right. Collecting and selling resources is such a viable trade, it should require at least some skill blocks to do, just like every other trade in the game.
I would like to see a Certification for placing anything harvester larger than a personal (small) harvester. That would still allow folks who aren't Artisian/Miners to collect resources, but actually make being a Artisian worth something. I hate it when you spend all day/night locating the prime spot, only to have some TKA/whatever come up and plop down a couple mediums or heavies with a grin, and say "thanks for showing me the spot"...grrr
I thinkyou shouldneed Survey4 to qualify to use a medium, and one other Artisian skill tree to level 4 to qualify to place a heavy harvestor. I don't see them letting Artisians use any weapon they like w/o certifications, it should be the same way for our tool of choice.
I'll bump this thread till the cows come home, because only the sqeaky wheel gets the grease!
Josza Sabai - Sunrunner
Synra,
Ok, I see your point, and you're still wrong. Mining is a business but who said every business had to have a skill tree and certifications? Why does Mining, because it's technically a business, HAVE to fall under every other business system in the game? Because you said so?
You make the error when you assume that 1 can not stand alone from the whole. That just because it's similar it must be treated the same.
You make this error again when you assume, wrongly, that because of my feelings on mining resources I have the same feelings for all "businesses".
You need to stop assuming and generalizing and look at the heart of the issue. There is nothing broken and nothing wrong to make your suggestion valid. It would just make everything fall in line to your way of thinking which is not needed.
Making 1.1 million credits in a week from mining? And here I thought we were having some semblance of an intelligent discussion.
To be quite honest, if the system was broken and there was a real problem with how things are now, then I would be more than HAPPY to leave harvesting resources to specific related professions. Like Scouts or Craftsmen.
However the current system is NOT broken. You say you will be poor if you had to buy resources. I say you are horrible as a businessman if you believe that. You would raise the price of each good slightly to compensate.
So currently this is possible:
1) You buy your resources if you have to. Raise the price of items slightly to reflect this. You make the same profit
2) I make some credits from selling resources which takes time and money. The items I buy from you still do not erase my profit. I make profit
3) I take some of the burden off of you so you can concentrate on your profession of CRAFTING instead of running around maintaining a lot of harvesters. Thereby helping your profession out.
So to sum up, I make profit, you make profit, you gain more time to get more XP. Tell me how THAT is a bad thing?
So yes, I get your point, but your point is poor.
I'd like to add that the folks who are spouting off those high numbers that a miner could make are obviously NOT miners! With all the time it takes just surveying and locating new materials, not too mention the travel costs, medical costs for dealing with all the agros, resource shifts, etc, I make MUCH less than any top tier profession.
Yes Master Artisian is a basic profession, but to be good at my job as a "Resource Specialist", I also need some small weapon skill, lot's of Scouting,quite a bit of medic, and that leaves me with no points. As opposed to someone who uses all their points to be Master Elite(whatever) profession, and STILL be able to have ALL the mining skills I do.
Please add Harvester certifications! (I don't see them givingfree weapon certs to master artisians)
-Josza Sabai - Sunrunner
Well what do you know? I had a response typed out and then explorer decided to crash at the most inopportune time. I'm sure some of you could care less if I reposted. Too bad for you. I'll just sum it up. I feel no need to respond to DaiShan99999, it'll just start a flame war, and I didn't post here for that. Anyway, the resources up on the bazaar aremainly for the lazy to purchase... such as myself. I could go get the resources myself, but I don't. I can't believe the amount of people who don't see the logic behind at least certifications on harvesters. So basically, all a Artisan gets as s/he gains skills is the ability to craft more stuff? What's the point of surveying experience? Right now, it's because I want to survey and sample by hand. Most of you'll agree that's not the reason you wanted to be an Artisan.
As far as miners keeping bazaar prices low, may be true, but do remember that low prices aren't necessarily goodfor all. The lower the prices, the harder for one to maintain one's harvester and gain a profit. That being said, miners are just a fad. Of course, they'll never die, but the time required is too steep for them especially if their original intention of the game was to play totheir profession's design. This is what Artisans signed up for. Artisans are basically the economy and as is their reason for being a profession in the first place.
I'm sure I said more, but not like any of you'll listen to what's being said.
Gogo1924 -
I see. So your big response turned into a shorter 2 paragraph response that touched on none of the points I made. Especially the final points of how nothing is broken, and Artisan's are not damaged.
And you're worry of a flame war are unfounded. Last time I checked, I insulted no one but pointed out errors in the main arguement. And to which I've received no direct rebuttal.
Again I will say, yes, placing a harvester can be given certifications and made for only a certain few. But AGAIN I will say, why? I've already pointed out how currently things are ok and no one loses. Things might be getting more competitive, but that's the nature of business and the game.
If you, or anyone else, ever chooses to respond to anything I say directly, then I'll post again.
But I have been playing somewhat hardcore since release. 1.1 million credits per week isa fantasy. I have been playing 2 months now and I have not yet hit the 1 million mark. Infact, if I bought materials from "miners" I would actualy be dirt poor right now, while those "Miners" are rolling in their piles of millions of credits.
This is assuming that those miners are selling all of there mined material. I admit i am harvesting a bit to make some money on the side. Most of the crafters i speak to have no problem making money in the game as they control the economy. They are the only real money sinks. I am a MBH in training, and i can tell you i can make money doing destroy missions sure, but armor, weapons, clothes, etc, cost money. Thats where my money goes, to crafters. If the miners are selling ALL of their materials, then objects are being made from them and sold back to the people that probably sold them the materials to make that very item. If the person is selling ALL of his materials over and over, then people ARE making stuff and selling it off as well. I don t know about you but in economics you usually pass of the buying of materials to your buyer.
If you bought all your materials, made a lot of product A and sold it, you should see a profit. thenyou would buy more and thusbe able tospend more time CRAFTING the items and selling them.
You can not be supply and demand at the same time?
Well yes you can. If i supply materials to get a FINISHED product that i do not have the skills to make, then i am a supplier and a consumer at the same time.
One thing that everyone needs to realize is thatnot every crafter wants to be a businessperson; nor doesevery crafter wants to be a miner. I prefer to buy my materials from brokers. Doing so gives me more time to enjoy the game. I can focus my time on creating thingslike weapons, clothesand armorinstead of wasting my time running all over creation maintaining harvesters and collecting resources.
Also, if you can get enough materials to support your profession as a Master DE and a Novice Architect, then what is the big deal? You have it made! Go out there and gather your resources. Be a businessperson AND a miner AND an architect AND a droid engineer! Be all of those things!! But please don't try to make me (and others)be things that I (we)have no desire to be. I don't want to be a miner!! I want to craft things! I want to be a tailor, a weaponsmith, and maybe a merchant someday... but I *don't* want to mine. And I am sure that others don't want to have to mine materials in order to be crafters either. Jeesh! It sounds like some people wish to make playing this game such an effort that there is not time to enjoy it.
Cheers!
PS: One other thing ... does anyone know where I can find info about the new Politician profession?
ok found a solution to what people are complaining about, artisans and and crafters don't deserve to be "miners". i have read all of the post on this thread and did a little research and have come to the conclusion that artisans and crafters don't deserve to build harvesters (or have certs)... Business men do. they have the ability to take advantage of having harvesters and even a shop. and they get nothing else to really do, so having them be the "miners" would help them and us. by reducing the price of matinance for them and hopefully reducing the price on the resources for us. the only exception maybe would be chefs do they can get water and food. medics and all other classes should have to take up survey in order to get samples for craftingthe medicins. I am a MasterArtisan/Novic Droid Engineer/Novice Weapon Smith, and ya i would take a hit giving up my harvesters but would do it if it would enhance other professions that are deemed as boring.
X-Fish Krafter (and no i cant spell)
*Sigh* Once again this lame messageboard died before I finished my post, and thus it was eaten. Hopefully I can successfully rewrite the whole thing:
OpticalDelusion, good post. I will try and answer your questions:
So, I guess must ask, what is the problem? That you ca't get your harvestors in?
No. Personally, I do not have a lot of trouble placing my harvesters. At least not yet, but as I said before, I am seeing more and more harvesters out there every day.
That you may need to buy resources from people dedicated to finding them?
No. Personally I have not yet had to buy resources from anyone, except for Hides, Bones and Meat. Will I have to someday? Sure, it is possible that I will come to that point sooner or later. It will be nice if those people are out there when that time comes. I WANT people out there that are "dedicated to finding them".
Personally, I see this as part of the game, and not a drawback at all.
I agree, I want "mining" to be a part of the game as well, and something that non-crafters can do to not only make some extra money, but to help augment the crafters of the game.
So, I guess must ask, what is the problem?
The problem I have with the current implementation of harvesters is that its a veryprofitable activity that simply anyone can participate in without needing to obtain any skill blocks for. You should at least have the ability to collect materials manually (sampling with a survey tool) before you canuse the best (and automated) material collecting devices.
After the discussions here, I do have to agree that my original implementation idea is far too strict, but I do still think that heavy harvesters should be a privelege that not everyone should have easily.
I now think that Novice Artisan should grant the ability to use small harvesters, Survey IV should allow you to use Mediums, and Master Artisan should allow Heavies.
I WANT players to be dedicated to "mining" if they want to be, and I want those players out there selling materials. But just like basically every other activity in the game, it should require you to obtain SOME skill blocks. If you want to be able to do healing, youhave to take up afewmedical skills. The same should apply for obtaining and selling mateirals. You should be required to have at least some artisan skill justto do it poorly.
There really isnt much more I can say to argue this subject. I believe that my logic is solid that "mining" should follow the same rules as the rest of the game. If I have not convinced you yet, then there is just nothing that I can say to change your mind. I feel that this would be an appropriate change considering the nature of everything else in the game.
I am a Twilek. I have two large Lekku on my head. You would think that I could just move those as I please, and when I please. You would think that moving one of them over my shoulder would be as simple a task as folding my arms. But it isnt. I must either obtain Image designer skills, or find someone who has those skills just to move my Lekku a little. That is just how the game works, and if my Lekku are not an exception to the rule, then why are harvesters?
Harvesters arenot broken? I think theyare quite very broken right now. Or very poorly implemented at least.
My model is: think about what will be required to become a novice member of the harvesting profession: certainly survey 4. I could possibly see also requiring business 4. I certainly wouldn't imagine that you'd need to be a master artisan to be able to mine, it makes no sense. I could imagine it requiring some scouting skills.
Of those, the most likely path is through survey, and the others are possible other requirements that without a mining profession have nothing to do with mining. So--put medium *and* heavy at survey 4, with the theory that when a harvesting profession is created mediums either stay there or move up to novice harvester, and larges move up to either novice harvester or master harvester, perhaps.
I do understand that master artisan needs something to make it more appealing--but I don't think this is the right way to do it. Many people who are interested in a miner profession for the sake of that profession aren't interested in crafting, from what I've seen.
Weaponsmithing has nothing to do with mining. Same with all the other crafting professions. If you really want to cert the stuff, I'd argue to keep it in surveying. This way the people that want to just get resoruces to sell can, but it will chew up a good chuink of skill ponts (15 + how ever high in sruvey skill).
However, i fail to see why this is a problem at all. Almsot every crafter I know buy resoruces, and has a major shortage. There just isn't enough lots and time to find all the rare stuff, or to find the massive amounts o rind.
If you make it so only elite crafters can run the heavy harvestors, and only master artisons run the emdium, I can pretty much gaurentee that most master smiths will be out of materials and complaining within a week.
At the moment, supply and demand are keeping things in check. There is a cost involved in mining. And there is a maximum price that crafter can pay and still make a profit. The amount of resource providers vs. crafters will determine where the cost per resource lies between those points. Too many resource providers (which seems to be your fear) would result in cheaper resoruces, and at some point, they will be too cheap to be profitable, and a lot of providers will no longer do it. It should balance itself out nicely.
So, I guess must ask, what is the problem? That you ca't get your harvestors in? That you may need to buy resources from people dedicated to finding them? Personally, I see this as part of the game, and not a drawback at all.
-Kyn