Artisan Archive
Thread: What to Do to Make Artisans Viable in this Combat-centric Game
Adding 50 more pts won't help. In many ways crafting is doomed by its own success. A great many players want to craft. Far more players in most cases than what the economy can handle. While your argument is that 50pts will let an artisan player have more combat skills and have more fun, it will also allow a combat player to pick up artisan skills and make his own stuff. 50 pts will easily allow someone to max out in artisan experimentation pts and to craft their own repair tools and powerups, while still being able to be a leet combat character. There are of course other ways a person can use 50 pts. One person pointed out that a person could make an even more powreful combat character.
Of course every elite profession is also an artisan and sometimes a master. Yes there needs to be more content, both combat, and social. I had no combat skills at all for about the first month of the game. I still was able to use a gun and at least help somewhat on missions with my friends. Yes wandering the wilds is more challenging with no combat skills, but I still could run harvesters and such. If you look at the missions you are doing, you will notice that civilians need help with creatures they can't fight. Not much difference than some crafter needing help to clear the area around a harvester. A player mission if I ever heard of one.
As players reach elite profeesions, the jack of all trades that people start out with begins to dwindle as we have to make tough choices about what skills we really want. We then start to become dependent on other players for various things. We can't do it all and that is a good thing.
Combat players probabably can earn more money faster than a crafter. Even though missions were nerfed a bit in the payouts, money is still fairly easy for a combat character to amas. Crafting is hard, and it doesn't help that there are too many crafters that cause prices to dwindle down to pathetic levels. Still, there is room to make money as a crafter and lots of it. I might not be able to make money as fast as a combat character, but I can make money.
If anything the game should be more restrictive with certain areas. A limited amount of schematics might help. Instead of every master crafter making every item, it might help if they had to pick only 20, or 50, or whatever,shcematics out of all the things they can make. I have over 200 schematics in my datapad. This would allow more niches in the market since not every crafter could make everything.
Since combatants can do $13k mission for a level 50 difficulty...
Artisan + Other Elite crafting profesions should have $500 - $10000 crafting missions that checks your CRAFTING skills instead of your combat skill and whatever gun you equip.
This would involve either complex construction requiring different resources or requires different parts or requires group crafting. Harder crafting missions pay more credits and xp.
Likewise, some of the harder kill missions have to be done in a group, group crafting will yield far more credits and experience (which helps to ease the grinding part of crafting)
Still, even XP and money don't take care of the boredom factor. Perhaps rather than combat skills, crafters, medics, and entertainers could have new devices that are useful in combat or defense. If a builder can make a device -- an area shield, creature repulsion field, a sensory overload weapon that lowers enemy to-hit chances or targeting, etc. could all help make support classes useful in the field and better protected against the dangers of the wilds when alone or without combat escorts.
Mack_Dorgeans, yourmessage reminds me of Karl Marx: He too very accurately diagnosed what was wrong with his world's economic system... and then came up with a totally flawed prescription for fixing those problems. 
I think your primary observation about content is absolutely dead-on correct. While the game launched with approximately equal amounts of contentbased on the variedprofessions, since then it seems pretty clear that most development time has been spent improving the combat experience. Yes, there have been some welcome changes to crafting skills, but by far the greatest number of ability changes and game featureshave been to combat skills. To be fair, this is in part to remedy PvP balance issues that don't affect crafters (who aren't directly competing in a zero-sum game like PvPers). Furthermore, given access to internal statistics we could probably conclude that there are more combat-oriented players of SWG than crafters, and the developers are just serving their player base appropriately by fixing their problems first, and by creating new content that (as it happens) only combat-heavy players can enjoy.
However, having said all this to be as fair and realistic as possible, it's still also true that this game has a significant proportion of crafting-heavy players, and they're feeling pretty darn left out of this game. As noted earlier, and as I can personally confirm, the Merchant profession is full of semi- or even totally-broken features, and yet every update patch seems to contain yet another minor tweak to some uberweapon's stats, or an enhancement to somecombat mission. And do I even need to mention thatthose ofus who can't waxhundreds of thugs were completely excluded from activelyparticipating inthe first part of the first story arc?
So yes, I think you're totally correct in your observation that those of us who've chosen to focus on learning non-combat skills have been somewhat left behind in terms of content. But just because I endorse your description of the disease doesn't mean I must concur with your prescription for a cure.
In fact, I'm with Osmol -- tacking on another 50 skill points is not a good solution. It simply has the advantage (like Marx's proposals) of being a quick fix... but quick fixes, made because someone has the power to impose "fairness" NOW, have tended historically to beterrible in their actual effectsbecause they fail to take into account the unintended consequences. (Actually, you do differ somewhat from Marx; his approach would be to deduct 50 points from every combat-oriented player -- at least your suggestion wasn't actively trying to penalize successful players!)
Inflating the skill point cap would simply make players look more like each other in their skills. How would that be more interesting/fun/useful than players who, because they're somewhat limited in what abilities they can learn, must rely on other players for certain things? Yes, that means some of us are excluded from participating in some parts of the game. But we're only "excluded" because we've voluntarily chosen to focus on crafting! Nothing whatsoever prevents you from surrendering a few non-combatskills (you don't really need Harvesting III or IV, for example -- there's 9 points right there) to learn a few new fighting abilities -- for that matter, you're perfectly free to create a combat-heavy character from scratch on another server. Yes, ifyou pay for contentit's reasonable towantto experienceall that content... but nothing's stopping you from doing so. You just can't do it all with one character, and I frankly see nothing wrong with that.
Furthermore, bumping skill pointssimply doesn'taddress the real problem -- the lack of interesting new things for crafters to do in the Star Wars universe equivalent to the theme parks and POIs and battlegrounds and "dungeons" available to combat players. Giving crafters access to the new combat content isn't a fix, it's a workaround. Why settle for that?
I submit that the solution is not tosurrender to our impatience and givecrafters access to combat content -- the solution is todemonstrate reasonablepatience with the developers until they produce equivalentcontent for crafters. By all means, we should continue tocourteously remindthe developersthat we're not feeling the love, both generally as a class and specifically by profession. And if they don't come through in some reasonable amount of time (I'd say a few months; it's a complex game), then maybe it's time to vote with our checkbooks.
But what we should NOT do is give in to thesiren callof the quick fix: that path leads to the Dark Side. Be patient, be firm but polite, and the crafter fixes and content will come.
After all, we don't know what the developers have planned -- maybe only crafters will befirst to unlock their Force Sensitive slot. (Remember, Luke was a farmer....) Wouldn't that be suitable compensation for notgetting to dropkick rancors?
--Flatfingers
I wouldn't mind at all if people drop criticism of an idea I've already dumped myself. Let's agree that was a poor idea and brainstorm some better ones, eh?
Fair enough, and thanks for putting it gently. 
It seems to me what we're really talking about is not profession balance, but class balance. (In fact, I'd say we'd do well to talk in terms of Bartle types as play styles, but set that aside for later.) So the key is to look for the changes that have the most impact on the relationships between combat-oriented folks and those whose primary goal isn't combat. (And we really have to come up with better terms for this division. Combatants and Crafters?Breakers and Builders?Fighters and Lovers? Hmmm.)
One of the more interesting ideas I've seen floated around here is requiring certs to use harvesters. This (it's thought) would tend to promote a clearer division of activity between fighters and crafters, especially if harvester certs were gained high enough up the skill tree to discourage a fighter picking it up for just a couple of skill points. The problem with this is that Artisans (currently) need to have this skill available at low levels, since they can't afford to buy their crafting resources. The problem remains evenif a Miner profession is created, since the Miner would need harvesters at a low skill level as well.
So while I agree that this would probably have a dramatic effect on the game economy, part of which would be to increase the value of crafting professions, I'm not sure there's a good way to make it work in practice.
Requiring certs for other things may run into this same problem, but it's an interesting idea that deserves further discussion.
--Flatfingers
I'm also not pleased with the Ranger tent situation. They should have some architect required components. Tents should have a certification (where they fall down quicker if not set by a ranger), but not completely refuse to work.
A couple times now I've seen posts that address the skill point addition proposal as if it were still my main focus. It's not. I fully realize it would be a dangerous quick-fix that wouldn't really help the real problems. I've moved past that initial shallow view and toward the more difficult, but hopefully more rewarding, ideas of improving missions, incentives, rewards, and usefulness as support professionals.
So, I wouldn't mind at all if people drop criticism of an idea I've already dumped myself. Let's agree that was a poor idea and brainstorm some better ones, eh?
For example, how about device certifications for items that aren't weapons, but serve defensive or other support roles in combat? This would help make non-combat professionals useful without becoming killing machines. If an armorsmith can use an area shield generator to give a battle group a few extra seconds of protection, would that be a useful and in-character skill? How about entertainers being certfied to use holo-projectors to camouflage their group or throw off enemy targeting? Medics are already sought after for in-the-field healing, so why not follow that model and come up with some unique abilities and items for the rest of the professions being left behind currently?
The same idea could be applied to some professions that might get nerfs to existing skills as compensation -- creature handlers, for instance, might gain the ability to calm aggressive creatures for a short time as a good protection for parties moving through the wilderness toward their homes, harvesters, or mission objectives. Such a skill would be a growth beyond their fundamental scout skill of masking scent, being perhaps more effective but working differently. New devices would be useful in granting such abilities, or improvements to them, which has the side-effect of giving building classes more useful things to make besides weapons, armor, and stat-enhancers.
One thing that might be nice for tailors is a disguise/camouflage skill via temporary-use clothing that only works within groups and expires over time (rather than clothing items that anyone could buy and use as long as they want).
Or, how about having architects able to erect temporary bunkers or trenches/foxholes in combat situations, providing some protection/defense against aggressors -- such things could complement sniper skills or camp attributes.
I've had a little more time to think about ways to improve non-fighter types generally (and crafters specifically). First, though, let me address some of the other ideas posted here.
I like the idea of professions that are explicitly forcombat support. Combat Medic is the prototype, but there could be others to fill the other kinds of roles you find in military operations:communications, logistics (if supply were as important in this game as in Real Life), PsyOps (this one could be fun, but the griefing potential probably dooms it), intel (now THIS one could work -- look at all the "spy" PAs that have already been created), etc. These professions might give minor bonuses to some pure combat skills, but would otherwise be focused on support abilities. The Squad Leader profession would also benefit indirectly from having more useful functions to integrate.
Having said this, I don't think it would be appropriate to graft combat support functions onto otherwise non-fighting professions. Again, I think we do better over the long run to find more way to let crafters be crafters (and likewise for the other non-combat professions), rather than tacking unrelatedcombat features onto them. We need to find ways for fighters to depend more on crafters (AND vice-versa!), rather than expecting crafters and other to participate in direct combat.
protection for parties moving through the wilderness toward their homes, harvesters, or mission objectives
This is something that just plain baffles me -- I can't understand why "caravan guard" hasn't turned into a more popular in-game role. There's no game-specific function for it, but it seems like something that would have emerged on its own... but it sure doesn't look that way.
I can only figure a couple reasons why not:
1) It's too easy for crafters to pick up combat skills. For example, I'm a Master Artisan and near-Master Merchant, yet I'm about to pick up my fourth skill level in Pistol. It's handy to be able to collect my own Hides (especially with prices skyrocketing), but I use it for defense as well -- I actually got chased into my home/shop by some swamp rats. They got me, but I got one of them first. On top of that, I've got/maskscent and improved /burstrun...so explain to me againwhy I need to hireguards?
2) The rewards offered aren't enough of an inducement. If combat types are able to pull down kilocredits for a relatively simple mission, it's not likely that any of them will be interested in theCr2000I can offer foreliminatingthe narglatchescamped out inmy front yard. I honestly believe that the rewards for missions have been and continue to be WAAAAAY too high. Fighters, for the most part, ought to be cash-poor; there ought to be gazilliions of ways for them to lose money and only a few ways-- mostly dependent on working for non-fighters -- to earn money. (Yes, I know this viewpoint will not make me popular with combat-oriented folks OR with high-level armor- and weaponsmiths. So be it; all these folks were able to advance far too quickly due to excessive fighter cash.) It would be nice to have other inducements than monetary, too -- maybe other players should be able to hire fighters, and after so many engagements be able to offer rank levels -- Guard, Guard Sergeant, Guard Lieutenant, Captain of the Guard, etc., with uniforms andbadges (REAL badges, not text!) as are in each case appropriate.
OK, now it's my turn to offer ideas to get shot down. (Hey, fair is fair.)
1. It was originally planned that low-level artisans would be able to craft components for items that only elite crafters could build, and that the skill point control system would force high-level crafters to give up low-level crafting skills (thereby creating a market for low-level crafters to profit by making components). Didn't happen. But maybe we should revive at least some of the basic idea -- how about requiring more low-level components for high-level items? Complex devices should need lots of simpler parts (and NOT from factory crates, either).
2. To extend this idea on the other side, I'd like to see more "multi-disciplinary" objects -- in other words, there ought to be really complex items that need components that can only be crafted by entirely different professions. This would do multiple Good Things: It would extend the game for high-level crafters; it would create more interaction among players (and professions); it would open up more opportunities for lower-level crafts (to supply the components, see #1 above); and it would put more cool things in the game for other players to enjoy. As examples of the kinds of things I mean, I think of shopping malls, vehicles (once that patch is released), power stations (for vehicles), and evenspace stations and maybe capital ships (once the Space Expansion is released). Also, there is talk of a City Planner profession... maybe they'll need advanced artisans in some way...?
3. What about factioned artisan objects? This would be a way for artisans to participate in the Galactic Civil War in a meaningful way. Off the top of my head, I think of things like fortifications and gun emplacements, and perhaps even the various types of Imperial walkers, but I'm sure there are lots of other faction-related items that crafters could create that could be tied to the movies.
4. More mission types, please. Crafters ought to be able to exercise their four key functions --creating, maintaining, repairing, and enhancing -- on darn near any object, and there ought to be all kinds of missions and places in which to exercise those distinct but related skills. (Speaking of enhancing, I don't mind letting Bounty Hunters do slicing on electronics and containers, but letting them doweapon and armor improvementis a mistake. Item enhancement ought to be restricted to crafters.)
5. Bodies of water are almost completely worthless in SWG, and that's a shame. If REALswimming were an option, we could create all sorts of water-related devices: snorkels, the rebreathers Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan used in Ep. I, submersible vehicles, oil rigs,floating houses....
6. Ditto #4, except in the air. (Although this would bebadly open to griefing unless the fastest vehicle available was a helium-filled dirigible, but we really do need some way to recreate Bespin.)
7. Finally -- and we're getting a little way-out here -- what if there was a kind of crafter that resembled the Settlers/Engineers from the Civilization games? In other words, what if we could alter the terrain? Although to prevent griefingthere'd have to be some seriously stout controls on what could be done, what if it were possible to build roads (which, frankly, ought to offer movement bonuses)? How about clearing trees? Would it be useful to those planting harvesters, do you think, to pay someone to level a piece of ground over a particularly rich resource site? Speaking of resources, why not offer a skill that improves the percentages of a particular resource in a single location (possibly reducing the percentages ofrandomly-selectedother resources nearby)?
I know not all these ideas are good ones. Others might be good, but are unrealistic. Ultimately, I agree completelywith Mack_Dorgeans --the pointisto come up with ideas for additional content for non-combat players. Most won't be used, but if even just a few are, then we're better off and it was worth it.
Anyone else want to give this a try?
--Flatfingers
What happened to those plans, or were there never really any to begin with?
Mack, as I recall there was discussion of a Combat Engineer type profession, where players would be able to provide some support in a firefight whiletheir artisan skills allowed them to craft and repair factioned military equipment. But as you noticed, it never got off the ground.
I suspect the feeling among the developers was that players would cobble togetherthis kind of "profession" forthemselves by cherry-picking from the variouscombatant and crafting skilltrees. To provide a ready-made crafter/fighter combination would (they may have thought) have encouraged too many people to master that profession, when what they really wanted was to promote specialization and mutual dependence. (You'll notice there was no Jack-of-all-Trades profession provided, either.)
Personally, I don't mind if artisans are able to craft and repair factioned military items, nor do I see a problem letting them pick up combat skills if they want. But I wouldn't go so far as creating specific direct combat roles for them -- I think the developers were on the right track to keep these skill sets distinct.
Again (and with respect), I don't think the answer to combat-specific contentis to make crafters more like fighters -- I think the answer is additional crafter-specific content. If that content takes the form of a "battlefield support" role, that's fine with me as long as it's something only a crafter can do.
--Flatfingers
Art: 4-0-4-4 (Smith-Not cook/tailor-Merchant-Own resources for most part)
Smith: 4-4-4-4 + Master (Smith of choice)
Merchant: 3-3-3-3 (Don't need master in this allows more points towards combat)
Base-Combat-Prof: 4-0-0-0 (any line you want, doesn't need to belike this)
Elite-Combat-Prof: 4-2-2-2 (got over 50% of the skills)
Obviously depending on how much you like one thing or another you can shift thing around. But for the purpose of being focused on being a merchant & smith, this looks good to me. I don't really see the limiting factor another than you can't be everything - and you shouldn't be able to. What it comes down to is what you really want to be with that particular character.
Increasing the skill points to 300 would cause lots of balance issues based on the very thing you wish to do - "expand" into other classes. With 300 points, I image someone who is focusing on solo PvP could get Master Elite Weapon, Master CH, and a fair deal into Doctor (somewhere close to 3-3-3-3) as well.
Master Dragger, Drunken Friar