Artisan Archive

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erli wrote:

I love the idea of a Miner/Geologist elite profession. I have yet to see a proposal that would add a significantly different and self sufficient Elite profession without detracting from other existing professions or improving upon the improvised miner templates currently available.

I personally believe this one does exactly that. It provides benifit to those the wish to pursue mining as a profession, while not penalizing those that already do mining for a living.

Currently to get the most from a Miner template you likely take Artisan 4-0-4-4, Master Architect, Merchant 3-0-0-4 (if that much). This still leaves 98 skill points. The Master Architect part is debatable, but it sure comes in handy when building up a farm as well. So pretend you replace the Master Architect with the Scout 4-0-0-4 prereq. (ugh camping). Then you add in the Elite Miner/Geologist Profession. Now you are Artisan 4-0-4-4, Scout 4-0-0-4, Merchant 3-0-0-4, Master Miner/Geologist. This only leaves 55 points left over. A difference of 43 points, necessity of buying all harvesters and storage, for the added benefits of better survey capacities and a slightly better BER rate? In my opinion, it just is not worth the cost.

Well, this is actually the point. People are already making a good living off of resources, but with very little "penalty". They still have other professions to back it up, including combat. Few resource miners I know actually follow a template. They simply have Artisan x/x/3/4. Their combat professions provide them with more than enough cash to purchase any harvesters they need in the beginning, and the resources bring in the income from there on out.

And when you really get down to it, you can be a MG and still do something else if you really wanted to. For example, you could use a template like Scout 4/x/x/4, Artisan 4/x/3/4, Master Geologist, Brawler 4/x/x/x, TK Master. That's not a bad combination. You could swap TK for any of the Melee elites, or change brawler to marksman and do any of those elites. And you'd still have a vendor for selling your wares in a mall, while reaping all of the MG benifits. The downside is ofcourse, you do only get 1 vendor and limited items on it. You do have to buy your harvs. But that isthe choice to be made.

You could use a template such as Scout 4/1/1/4, Master Artisan, Master Geologist, Master Merchant. You then have artisan goods to sell (and some of them sell VERY well - powerups and EGP's, EMM's, Control Units come to mind), plus you have Master Merchant with which to open your own mall if you desire. I run my own mini-mall as M-DE/M-Artisan/M-Merchant and Architect 4/3/x/4. I have 10 venders stocked with all kinds of things, including CH/BE goods, Armor, Resources, Chef goods, etc.. I can provide all of this because I found partners for what I couldn't make myself. A MG would be in the same boat. But a choice has to be made. If you don't want MG, then don't. But someone with MG will be pulling in the quality resources faster, moreeasily, and more efficiently than you will. They will find the highest quality stuff and have harvs down on the best %'s before you will. Is the profession worth that to you? If not, no biggie. But I know lots of people would love to have that advantage. This gives it to them, at the price of a whole professions worth of points.

I think many of the great ideas for the Geolological field are better added to professions currently in the game than requiringa new profession to accomodate. I also think it will be more productive to getting some of the things that would make mining easier installed by illustrating how they improve existing professions. A survey range bonus was recently added in the FS skills. Most of the otherimproved surveying features could be implemented in other droids or droid components. A droid component that draws samples of resources of a planet you are on based off all the resources on a survey tool and actually reports their stats would be a nice start. Another that could report a larger graphical representaion of concentrations (like a land elevation map does). Or one that could be sent to a planet to identify the 3-5 highest concentrations of a specifically programmed resource. The ability to have a droid deposit maintenance AND power (with appropriate storage) would be a nice perk. The ability to use these four droids could then be made certs up the current artisan survey tree, thereby improving both Artisan and DE. The increase in BER rate would be nice, but, could just as easily be added to survey line at .2 per with an additional .2 at Master Artisan. It would only give One full BER unit to the Master Artisan, hardly an unreasonable request. Emails of resource shifting out from harvesters or harvesters running out of maintenance or power should already be standard. Geo-forming or Terraforming is another idea often talked about. It would be really nice to have the ability to put harvesters where we currently cannot, but I think cross server lot swaps have killed this idea from ever happening. Even still, it makes more sense to add more versatile types of harvesters to the architect trees than it does to add an entire profession. Floating mining platform (Max BER 10) only placable once. A stilted mineral/chem harvester, can be placed on slightly more uneven ground but decay at a rate of 10% condition per redeed.

Personally, I think mining is easy enough for the investmentas it is. It doesn't need to be made any easier without there being some cost associated with it. When it comes to equipment such as droids, while that would help the professions that craft such things, I believe that it would hurt the economy as a whole. Many of the elite crafters out there are already Master Artisans because of the MA components required to make the elite objects (it's alot easier to makeMA itemsyourself). That would in effect give every elite crafter / merchant that has MA all of the added advantages. Too many people having advantages of this nature spells disaster for the economy. Hence the need for a profession. I'm sure there are lots of other people out there that feel as you do, and won't bother to take it up. And that's perfectly fine. You won't be penalized for it. But those that want the edge will pay for it with skill points, and will have a distinct advantage.

As far as stilted / floating harvesters, I like that idea and am working out in my head a way to include them (this wasn't the first time it's been proposed). What I suggested in the DE forum (where this is also posted) is add the ability for floating harvesters at master, and stilted harvesters for inclines from 3-5% more than "normal" restrictions, but you must maintain the minimum skill to be able to place, maintain, and operate them. This prevents cross-server lot swapping unless someone wants to make a MG specifically for that purpose. That's just too much work for most people.

Sorry for rambling negatively about a professional idea I actually am fond of. I just feel that to add a whole new Elite profession would require a much more impactful change from what can be achieved currently and still not detract from what is already there. None of the Miner/Geologist proposals to date suffciently accomplish this in my opinion.

Not a problem at all, my friend. We have a difference in opinion which is perfectly ok, and I hope I have illustrated my "side" of things without coming off as insulting or confrontational. This is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. While I really enjoy seeing positive comments, an idea can't be refined without critizism or differing opinions. Thank you for your post

-erli

Master Artisan, Master Architect, Master Rifle, Merchant 0-0-0-2 (though I really miss those pre vendor nerf scout skills)

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Message Edited by Jjiaah on 10-07-2004 08:16 AM

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joined42904 wrote:

I like most of it. But not the Resource Beacon. The only purpose of such a static beacon would seem to be to help monitor a cross-server trade of static harvs on an ongoing basis without the person having to travel to their location to figure out what they are on.

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You've got this big bone in your tail that just won't go away over cross-server.

Not everyone is a cross-server "baron". This has a legitimate use. It's called SAVED TIME. As you get older you'll find out that the most valuable commodity there is.

Fivo Asia

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Paaz wrote:

We have simular ideas but I have a few objections to a few items in your post.

I have posted my Idea on a seperate thread.... Surveyors - Elite Profession: Prospector (Resourse Specialist)

The first problem for me is to have 4/0/4/4 in artisan as a prerequisite. Why do I have to have buisness diversity, ownership, advanced sales, and basic sales to gather resources? Why do I have to have Crafting/Engineering ability? Those things may help me but should not be considered a prerequisite.

(response to green text) Um... I never said 4/-/4/4 was a requirement. Only 4/-/-/4. Read the originating post. 4/-/4/4 was discussed as a current and/or future template later on, butwas never listedas a requirement for this profession.

(response to red text) Firstly, to be able to build the Resource Beacon. Secondly, see below for more, specifically theorange response.

The second problem is how you some how make equipment work better with skill than it was originally designed. I don't like the idea that your skill increases the effectivness of equipment as much as your skill increases your ability to use the equipment to its max potential. By this I mean, You can't magically increase the BER of an extractor without modifying the extractor... This is the job of another artisan. You might be the best star pilotin the galaxybut that doesn't make the ship max speed change without modifying the ship. With skill you might be able to use the max capabilities of equipment but not make it better. How could you make a Heavey Mineral Extractor's BER greater when you don't have the skill to build one? A slicer coulsd increase the BER but maybe the maintenance cost would increase. An artisan with new advanced resources could build extractors with greater BER. That is their jobs... ours is to find the best resources at the best concentrations.

(response to orange text) Well, you actually made the point without realizing it. In your first problem, you asked why it would be required to have 4/-/-/- as a prerequsite.You answered yourselfin your second problem. You DO have the skills to make it better via engineering 4. Plus, as a geologist and professional miner, being able to build at LEAST the most minor of harvesters should be a requirement. Period. To know how they function and best utilize and improve them is imperative for any "skill improvements", if even on the most basic level. There's no point to involving a second artisan except as a time sink.

(response to purple text - and some orange) While a slicer can't necessarily build a weapon,they certainly know how they work well enough to improve them. Same principle. You essentially (from an RP aspect) "learn" how different placements, ground hardness, moisture, gear ratios, all affect the harvesters performance. You then make adjustments to compensate for them. Same as slicing, but as a Master inherent skill, not a hands-on tool based one. Though, I suppose it could be.....

(response to blue text) If you can find the better resources in a better concentration, but have no more means of digging them up than any other profession... there's no real point to dedicating a whole elite profession to it. Unless you have a network of friends / PA that will come immediately to drop harvs on all the best spots you find, you drop your 10 Heavies down and that's it. You've burned a whole profession just to do that. There must be some other significant bonus to make it worthy of a profession, without decreasing the functionality of existing professions.

Here is an idea:

In a new elite class we should have Advanced surveying that uses advanced scanners. This branch of the tree would work much like the Surveyor branch on Artisan tree but with each new block you receive qualification on an advanced survey device:

Suggested Advanced Surveying Branch

Novice Prospector: Grants Qualification with AdvancedSolar and WindSurvey Devices

Advanced Surveying I: Grants Qualification with Advanced Mineral Survey Device

Advanced Surveying II: Grants Qualification with AdvancedChemical Survey Device

Advanced Surveying III: Grants Qualification with AdvancedWater and FloraSurvey Device

Advanced Surveying IV: Grants Qualification with AdvancedGas Survey Device

I would say that the over all range for such devices would be upto 1000m. And a Master Prospector would be able to acheive that peak performance.

(response to dark blue text) This branch would merge nicely into the Geologist proposal Surveying Equipment branch to go hand-in-hand. These tools can be a Master Artisan schematic, and thus give MA's something more to build and sell while encouraging Master Artisan from MG's (as all the elite Crafting professions do).

While on this subject I would like the advanced tools to do one of two things as well as have increased range:

1) Open up rare resources normally not available on standard survey equipment; i.e.: Gold, Silver, Carbon. Or just more choices than on the standard device; i.e.: An extra steel, Ore and 3 gases.

Though I am in favor of this idea, I don't see it happening. The servers would then need to do a skill check for surveying vs these extra resources, and in essence need to keep a seperate list of spawns and shifts. The latter has a better chance than the former though. Adding new resources into the mix that don't already have a schematic use is nothing but server load. That won't happen at all, ever, if the Devs can help it. Alot of work for essentially zero functionality.

2) More info displayed on device than just name of resource. After you survey for the resource but before pulling a sample the display may give an OQ rating. This might be something nice for advanced survey droids as well.

Inthe proposal for Geologist, I had already included this in Surveying Equipment 4. However, it does make more sense when merged with thebranch above.

Excellent idea on the Advanced Survey droids! I have now included them as part of the Geologist proposal.

Look at my post for more on Elite Class Surveyor

Surveyors - Elite Profession: Prospector (Resourse Specialist)

Paaz Patoo

Paaz Rocks!

Bestine, Theed, and Coronet

Tarquinas

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Message Edited by Jjiaah on 10-10-2004 04:26 PM

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hamhamthe3rd wrote:

ok, is this BER bonus to effectthe BER of harvesters? ok if so why? harvesters are machines and thus should be set. can a chef operate a toaster better than i?i think not. a toaster isnt as complex as a harvester but either way i dont see how being a geologist has a thing to do with utilizing such machinery better than the next man. if it was his own hammer, that i can understand, but its a machine doing the work.

Copy/pasted (and slightly edited for increased relevance) from my responses to this exact concern in the posts above:

(response to purple text - and some orange) While a slicer can't necessarily build a weapon,they certainly know how they work well enough to improve them. Same principle. You essentially (from an RP aspect) "learn" how different placements, ground hardness, moisture, gear ratios, all affect the harvesters performance. You then make "adjustments" to compensate for them, expressed as a 1BER increase. Same as slicing, but as a Master inherent skill, not a hands-on tool based one.

Now to add on to that, why would someone withNovice Commando not be able to operate their flamethrower as well as a Master Commando? Are they capable of pulling the trigger and holding it down? Certainly. But the Master Commando has learned to USE the flamethrower more efficiently. They have practiced and made it their "lifes work" essentially. Same with the Geologist. They have spent the time and energy learning everything about terra, where the veins are, and how to best extract what they want. As a real-life example, the men out on oil rigs in the ocean... while they didn't build the equipment, they frequently can get them to excede operational standards by making their own adjustments. And they've learned this through constant use and practice. Professional mechanics didn't build a stock showroom car, but they can get improvments in performance with adjustments. Exact same principle. Only as stated before, it's expressed as a Master level inherent skill, not a hands-on tool based one.

what i think thatwould be better than just giving them aBER bonus is enabling them to build a component that affects the ber of harvesters and of coursechanging the way harvesters are made so they canaccept that optionalcomponent. the geologistcan then sell theseschematics to architects and the architect could then build a better harvester and be able to break current BER limits through using that component. maybe thiscomponent canincrease in its limit breakas the geologist advances or not.

Also a nice thought, though that would affect the economy way more than desirable on a wide-scale basis. The idea is to improve the functonality of a resource gatherer without affecting the fundamental functonality of the other professions. It's one of the ways balance is maintained. A few schematics given to other professions for use by the Geologist would be inline with present game mechanics. Creating something new that could be used by everyone to enhance theirgathering... soon resources will be .2cpu while the prices of rare things goes up to compensate for the glut of regular items on the market.

really what i would like to see from such a class, is the ability to survey and sampleresources that do not appear in the world for anyone else. resourcesburied so deep that only that class can detect themthus only they would be able to placea harvester over them. however that would hurt the renting of lots but oh well. it would also make the geologist a very helpful part of the economy if he were real.

Taken from a response to a similar proposal entitled Prospector (asking for "special rare resources"):

"I like the idea in general, with the exception of the extra resources. While novel, and I do enjoy the thought of it, that alone is enough to get a proposal shot down. Not only would the resources need to be developed, but they would need to be kept in a list that is verified by a skill-check, and then the resources would need to be incorporated into schematics for use. This would ultimately require either a revamp of the existing crafting system to allow for the new resources, or to generate new schematics that can utilize the existing resources. While they may be able to fit into a slot that just takes "Metal" or "Low-grade Ore" for example, that does the high-end crafter that requires a majority of specific namedresources little good for being able to utilize them. If such a thing is not implemented, the extra resources are nothing but server load. "

While I believe that you were more refering towas existing resources that only a "Geologist" or "Prospector" could find. The problem there is integrating the skill-checks. This requires significant extra database usage, and likely a restructuring of the surveying skill as a whole. I don't see that happening, unfortunately.

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Message Edited by Jjiaah on 10-11-2004 11:40 AM

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hamhamthe3rd wrote:

a harvester is still a machine with moving,almost thinking parts.if you plug it into the ground it should work the same for you as it would for me.

soperson Ahas walked the land for centuries surveying and have seen just about everything surveyinghas tooffer. compare that to person Bandhis2 hr surveying career. yesperson Ashould have more knowledge than person B, thats why i think survey tools should be changed to reflect that more, but i dont think your machinery shouldlearn anything. i cant speak about commandos but i can speak about riflemen. being a novice rifleman versus being a master doesnt make me less proficient with a rifle but more effective in combat using one. yes its true i suffer more disadvantages than a master but the rifle itself doesnt gain functions, its ham cost doesnt decrease, its power doesnt increase. i dont make the rifle more accurate, i become more accurate or less clumsy.you have to be intimate with yourrifle to become deadly. as it is, there is no way to become intimate with a harvester. usingarifle theres human error to calculate. using a harvester, theres no such thing, it works alone without us. the idea ofreverse engineering is a good thing however, theres failure associatedand theresults are random, but innate abilities that work like magic are totally different.

anotherthing i was thinking about is maybe he could just set the extraction rate himself. for example if the harvester had a max ber of 14 then he could set it to extract at least half that rate. of course this would make him more powerful but would come at master lvl and maybe couldalso forcehim to master artisan along with it. it would be nice to have a profession that *actually* required master artisan.

im not against this class only that i disagree with it being able to change machinery without consequence. also im not trying to get you to change your mind about your ideas.

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just adding some thoughts to yours

In terms of the changing of harvester qualities...

this isn't really analgous to advancing up the rifleman tree but advancing up the smuggler slicing tree. a smuggler does not make the weapon or armorbut can tweak it to make it better in either of2 characteristics. same idea, level up in this and you can toy a bit with the harvesters extraction rate. in this case, its as though the miner has advanced knowledge of how the harvester works rather than just placing it and letting it go.

as for adding a risk to it, not a bad thought. a smuggler has a 50% chance of failure without molecular clamps...not sure how or even if adding such a thing would be a good idea. smuggler slicing needs work but don't let me go off on that rant

your other idea for giving the ability to harvest certain resources unavailable to nonminers is an interesting one. this game has lots of interdependencies between professions which can be a good thing since you have to talk to different people.

or it can be a huge pain depending on how well the professions are distributed among players (have you tried to find a DE or and ID lately :smileytongue so adding this is a risky thing. what schematics would require those hard to find resources? will there be enough miners to make it in something that will be of common enough use such that you don't end up with some craftable item thats highlyvalued mainly because its rarelike the AV-21? the rare stuff should be left as loots since those are great incentives to go get yourself killed in places like the DWB

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Giamai wrote:

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hamhamthe3rd wrote:

a harvester is still a machine with moving,almost thinking parts.if you plug it into the ground it should work the same for you as it would for me.

soperson Ahas walked the land for centuries surveying and have seen just about everything surveyinghas tooffer. compare that to person Bandhis2 hr surveying career. yesperson Ashould have more knowledge than person B, thats why i think survey tools should be changed to reflect that more, but i dont think your machinery shouldlearn anything. i cant speak about commandos but i can speak about riflemen. being a novice rifleman versus being a master doesnt make me less proficient with a rifle but more effective in combat using one. yes its true i suffer more disadvantages than a master but the rifle itself doesnt gain functions, its ham cost doesnt decrease, its power doesnt increase. i dont make the rifle more accurate, i become more accurate or less clumsy.you have to be intimate with yourrifle to become deadly. as it is, there is no way to become intimate with a harvester. usingarifle theres human error to calculate. using a harvester, theres no such thing, it works alone without us. the idea ofreverse engineering is a good thing however, theres failure associatedand theresults are random, but innate abilities that work like magic are totally different.

anotherthing i was thinking about is maybe he could just set the extraction rate himself. for example if the harvester had a max ber of 14 then he could set it to extract at least half that rate. of course this would make him more powerful but would come at master lvl and maybe couldalso forcehim to master artisan along with it. it would be nice to have a profession that *actually* required master artisan.

im not against this class only that i disagree with it being able to change machinery without consequence. also im not trying to get you to change your mind about your ideas.

I understand where you're coming from on that. Perhaps Commando wasn't the best example. As far as consequence, there is already a pseudo-consequence built in by having to spend a whole professions worth of points to acheive it. I am not completely against a method of "slicing" the harvester, however until after the smuggler revamp, I'm hesitant to suggest anything that requires any form of slicing. The first system is bad enough. We don't need to poison the minds of any Devs that may read this with a sugar-plum thoughts of a second flawed system.

Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.

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just adding some thoughts to yours

In terms of the changing of harvester qualities...

this isn't really analgous to advancing up the rifleman tree but advancing up the smuggler slicing tree. a smuggler does not make the weapon or armorbut can tweak it to make it better in either of2 characteristics. same idea, level up in this and you can toy a bit with the harvesters extraction rate. in this case, its as though the miner has advanced knowledge of how the harvester works rather than just placing it and letting it go.

Yes. That is more what I was getting at. Thank you for your explanation. I believe it gets the point across far better than what I was saying.

as for adding a risk to it, not a bad thought. a smuggler has a 50% chance of failure without molecular clamps...not sure how or even if adding such a thing would be a good idea. smuggler slicing needs work but don't let me go off on that rant

/agree... on all points.

your other idea for giving the ability to harvest certain resources unavailable to nonminers is an interesting one. this game has lots of interdependencies between professions which can be a good thing since you have to talk to different people.

or it can be a huge pain depending on how well the professions are distributed among players (have you tried to find a DE or and ID lately :smileytongue so adding this is a risky thing. what schematics would require those hard to find resources? will there be enough miners to make it in something that will be of common enough use such that you don't end up with some craftable item thats highlyvalued mainly because its rarelike the AV-21? the rare stuff should be left as loots since those are great incentives to go get yourself killed in places like the DWB

I see it as a not-so-bad thing IF the resources are simply existing resources, but only a MG could find and harvest it. A post or two back, I already described what I believe to the downfall of such a thing.

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Thank you as well for your input.

And for everyone who has contributed to this thread... all discussions, whether they appear to me or others to be fruitful or not, have a place in the refinement of a proposal such at this. While it may seem at times that I disregard suggestions quickly, please believe that I do not. I give everything lots of thought and concideration, every time.

Message Edited by Jjiaah on 10-11-2004 06:18 PM

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mmrl1 wrote:

I'm not sure if this will fly well...

But I'd like to see more than a 1 ber change. I'd like to see +2 at least.

I had concidered that actually. I want MG's to have a decided advantage. At the same time, I didn't want to see a glut of alts becoming MG's. Too many of them results in a glut of resources on the market, which is the start of an economic down spiral. I figured a 1BER increase, in tandem with the other benifits, would be enough. It's not out of the question though, and may be implemented later. Going to give this some much deeper thought.

I believe the devs said it would be hard to increase the surveying range because of how far the items on the server load for each person, this is why the devs wouldn't let the range on rangers' track increase.

Just something to consider.

Aye. It's a hurdle, but I frankly don't see much more of a feasable way to give such a profession enough bonuses without it. Essentially, almost every proposal made includes an extended range.

(Fyi I remember when they were going to have miners back in beta and it was an awesome idea and one that I would love to see now, don't tie certs to it but give big bonuses in the profession)

Exactly what I'm trying to accomplish here

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