Artisan Archive
Thread: Miner: A complete draft
MirraxTerrik wrote:
Im well aware of the harvester cert flame wars but that doesnt mean I cant suggest it... Its up to the people replying to this thread to keep the peace.
By the way I love the idea of surveying from mounts and vehicles, If I knew how to edit the thread I'd put that in there
Well if you are aware of the previous cert/miner flame wars I would suggest you read them and address the issues that are in them in your design to see if you can come up with something new that could be a compromise
MirraxTerrik wrote:
Here's why some players don't want miner implemented.... (Pulled from another thread on the Core Systems Forum) And why our economy sucks....
There are always going to be players that kick and scream at any hint of change. Those players are usuallythe players withmultiple accounts and take part in cross server trading(considered an exploit by many) which in turn allows them to have complete monopolys over multiple crafting proffesions. So on more than a few servers 2-3'uber' players monopolize the entire economy because they can master multiple crafting proffesions and combat proffesions (and soon pilot as well), have master merchant level vendors (without merchant I may add, which is also considered an exploit among many), AND mine there own resources....
Which is where we see the biggest failing of the SWG economy--- No interdependency between players----
Because SWGlacks intricate schematics, a working merchnat proffesion,and harvester certificationsitallowscrafting proffesions to be completely self sufficient, never having to go beyond themselves to create and sellthere products. So...
Problem #1: Lack of a Miner Proffesion/ No need for crafters to buy resources from another player,
Problem #2: Crafting Proffesions don't need components from other proffesions (for the exception of droid eng.) again allowing self sufficiency,
Problem #3: Vendor Exploiting/ Lack of a working merchant proffesion,
Solution #1: Implement a Miner proffesion/ Harvester Certifications, therefore forcing interdependency between crafter/miner,
Solution #2: Revamp Schematics to include more components from other proffesions, i.e- Harvesters/Factorys require electronics from a master artisan, thereforeforcing interdependency between different crafting proffesions,
Solution #3: Make Merchant the only proffesion with the ability to sell products/ Implement consignment sales, therefore forcing interdependency between crafter/merchant,
This causes forced interdependencyamong players, (Except for people with alts, which is a problem that can never be fixed unfortunatley) and, if done correctly, balances the economy. (Other changes would obviously have to be made in order to balance the economy, including faster weapon/clothing delay, and no more 30k mokk missions.)
So the only people whoshould be dreading the idea of interdependency will be the 'uber' players unwilling to end there exploitive reign over the economy of there server...
Well, I had more respect for your idea until you started the "anyone who doesn't like my idea is a greedy 'sploiter" line. I'm sorry, but this tack only encourages flame wars.
First off, there are no monopolies in SWG...it's impossible to form a monopoly in SWG. There may very well be players who are completely self-sufficient (due to multiple accounts, cross server lot trading, etc.), but that's not the same thing as having a monopoly.
Secondly, even if we take your arguments at face value, a mining profession would not reallysolve any of the problems you listed. As you stated, there's nothing stopping players with multiple accounts from creating one toon that's a primary crafter, another that's a miner and another that's a merchant (in fact most crafters already take some merchant or have a merchant alt). They'd still be just as self-sufficient as ever. Granted, with harvestor certs it would be harder to do cross server lot trades for harvestors, but I'm sure the power gamers would find a way around that limitation (after all, that's what power gamers do). Even single account players would be forced to take up enough of the miner profession to harvest their own resources, if only to stay competitive.
There's already a fair amount of interdependency between professions, enough that it's already a hassle. Creating even more interdependency will only make things more of a hassle in a game that is often times almost like a second job (especially for the dedicated crafters).
The real bottleneck of the SWG economy is the rarity of resources. Because the resource spawn is so random, it is impossible to create a stable supply chain from harvestor to vendor. The system encourages rampant resource hoarding, especially when an 'uber' resource spawns, because you never know when, or even if, a better resource of that type will spawn again. That is why a new resource that only costs 0.5 cpu to harvest sells for 5 cpu (and considerably more for extinct uber spawns).
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
MirraxTerrik wrote:
Sorry bout' that, didn't mean for that post to come off as "Anyone who doesn't like my idea is a greedy sploiter", from my experience in SWG it usually seems to be that the players opposed to any kind of change are usually the players who have reached there "uber" template and have desire to have to change any of it.
I'll grant that anyone who has achieved an 'uber' template probably would be opposed to any changes that interfere with their mode of play. It just detracts from your ideas and arguments to simply dismiss anyone who disagrees with you. That's all I was trying to point out.
As for X-Server lot trading, well that will never be fixed but I heard that the devs are limiting a persons lots game wide soon, which I can't decide if thats a good or bad thing yet... But in the long run harvester certs should discourage a good amount of it.
Personally I'm against harvestor certs (yes, I know this horse has been beat beyond recognition, lol). In the current system anyone can harvest resources to earn money, which imo is kind of the SWG equivalent of investing in the stock market, or putting your money into an IRA or 401K plan. This system has probably been abused by some who engage in large scale lot trading, but if x-server trading is such a problem, there are other ways to limit it(such as the game-wide lot limits you mentioned).
A miner profession will, by definition, reduce the number of people harvesting resources. Most combat professions that harvest on the side aren't going to change their combat templates to pick up miner. Basic economics tells us that reducing supply while demand remains constant results in increased prices. Thus, the miner profession will result in more expensive resources for everyone, even if you give miners extra lots for harvestors. So, things will be tougher for new players and casual crafters; they willprobably have to pick up miner just to stay competitive with 'uber' crafters.
Power gamers, on the other hand, will not suffer the consequences of this system as much, because most of them already have multiple accounts, so they can easily convert one or more of their toons into a miner. Also, they tend to have more money and are already established crafters, so they can easily afford to pay higher prices for resources, if they choose to. Even eliminating cross server lot trading won't slow down these players much; they'll find another way around the limitations (that's what power gamers do).
And while monopolys may or may not exist among the SWG economy, I think a lot of players out there would agree that on some servers it is sometimes near impossible to start a successful business in some proffesions nowadays. So while they may not be monopolys they can be pretty close.
I've only played on Corbantis, so I don't know how the economies of other servers work. On Corbantis I can say that there are no crafters who have so much dominance that they have impaired my ability to compete. I've been a MWS since December, and I've always kept a low profile. I do a low volume of sales, but I've still managed to accumulate a nice bankroll.
On Corbantis, at any given timewe tend to have a few big-name crafters in each field (or at least in Weapons, Armor, Chef and Meds). But none of these crafters have ever come close to establishing a monopoly. Eventually the big crafters get bored and either switch professions or leave the game, thus opening things for up-and-coming smiths.
For example, when the game first started, the big Weaponsmiths on Corbantis (that I can still remember) were Fate Valentine, Set Nine and a couple others. After a while, the big names were Icarii, Wah, Masta-Blasta and Bhodi (plus a few others I'm sure). Thennew big name WS emerged:Avock, Smo-key and Armani (again, I'm sure I'm forgetting a couple). Right now Smo-key and Armani are still crafting, but they are the only big name WS still going--the field is wide open for the next generation of WS to make their name. There are plenty of examples of prominent AS and Chefs retiring on Corbantis as well, so this isn't just confined to WS.
SWG has a free-market economy, and in free-market economies 50% of new businesses fail within the first year. The failure rate is something like 75% within 3-5 years. It's not easy to run a successful business, and I don't think it should be easy. I think a lot of complaining by new smiths about 'monopolists' is just transference. It's easier to blame someone else for our failures than to admit that we are too lazy, too unmotivated or too, well, dumb to run a successful business. Even some of the most successful business people fail their first couple of times around, so persistence is a big factor as well. Somehow it's not hard for me to imagine that many video-game players have a problem with persistence, at least in the absence of immediate rewards.
In regards to making it more difficult for casual player (second job mentality), if it is implemented right there should be not much of a problem. I am a 'weekend warrior' myself and I dont think that miner would make it that much harder, it takes me 5 minutes to run to the local resource vendor and buy what I need.
Well, this assumes that the resource vendor is stocked with what you need. It assumes that a casual player will be able to afford a decent quantity of resources to stay in business. It assumes that a more established, and wealthy, smith doesn't come along and clean out the resource vendor of all the good stuff first. As I stated before, the real bottleneck in the SWG economy is the rarity and randomness of resources spawns, which makes it near impossible to ensure stable supply chains without massive resource hoarding. Unfortunately, by the time you log on Saturday morning, the resource vendor could very well be cleared out. You'd be force to take up at least part of the miner profession just to ensure you had enough of the right resources to stay in business. At best, this means that thingswouldn't really be any different than they are now.
Anyways, thanks for the input.
Best Regards.
Harvester Lots +5 (5 Extra lots for harvesters only)
Bad Idea...Meaning 1000 players on a server take up this Profession...and at every uber spawn of ore and steel...
There would be 5000+ harvesters...or All the harvs would belong to one person...That destroys competition and fair play...so...I would keep it to increased Surveying, decreased maintenance, and increase in efficiency...I am ambivalent about the certs Idea...but that would have to be WELL thought out, so as not to destroy the in game economy on ALL the servers...it is too late in the game for this.
Requires 100,000 Mining xp (1 xp for every 1 resource unit retrieved from your harvesters hopper)
So,...a person using all 10 of their lots, would be able to drop their harvesters, and log? or do something else? This is a lot of reward...and little to no work. Sure Merchants have a similar system, but they are only selling their wares, whares, and if they are a good merchant are constantly updating and refreshing their vendors, and that is quite time consuming. Make it Surveying xp...And Drastically increase the survey xp for miners....and drop 2 Zero's off the xp requirement. Once the Recursive macro's are nerfed,...this alone even at 10k xp is painful...and you earn every bit of the reward.
In the case that one of the above skill trees is for any reason unable to be integrated into the system, such as the Resource Refinement tier because of database issues, here is an alternate…
Not plausible nor beneficial and takes all of the work out of looking for a high percentage spawn...as with just this tree would be able to drop all harvs on a 30% spawn and it will act like a 60%+...so, I disagree.
*Note- Purifier Effectiveness +X% would ‘Enrich’ the land around the purifier** X%, for example; You find a steel concentration of 85% and you drop your harvesters on it, then you place a purifier down also, with Site Purification 4 the outcome would be a new concentration of 95%.
This idea is not workable either...for the same reasons as above...
**Note- Purifiers would look similar to a harvester and would increase the concentration around it within a certain radius by X% where X= Your ‘Purifier Effectiveness’ Mods. Purifiers would have hefty maintenance and would be crafted be architects. Example; a ‘Soil Purifier’ would ‘Enrich’ the concentration of flora in a certain radius.
And due to the fact that this profession would turn all the open space in the game into a bumper car fest, i.e. *swerves umptienth million harvester, cursing all miners...* Trees are bad enough and Lot swapping annoying...lets not make it worse...
Its a very rough idea, that would, if the devs took it seriously and I just shot it apart, take a lot of revisions...good on ya for taking the initiative though.
Better to just sprinkle this out among all the crafter professions...instead of making Crafters waste even MORE skillpoints on something they already have.
Message Edited by AgreaAtodlie on 08-27-2004 12:17 PM