Artisan Archive
Thread: Focused Discussion of the Week 10/5/03 Surveying
I believe that the general feeling of artisans is that surveying sucks.
I may be wrong, and I want to get your feelings on it.
1. What do you like about surveying?
2. What do youdislike about surveying?
3. What changes need to be made to make surveying more interesting, or why do you like it the way it is?
I'm not starting a discussion on AFK surveying here, but if you domacro survey feel free to throw in reasons why you do.
Bianca Minola
the good:
free minerals, all it takes is time.
with medics, you can survey constantly.
the bad:
I think to make surveying better, remove the didn't get a sample option, replace it with like a lower ammount sample, or an event, I have no idea what though, it just gets annoying when you fail to get a sample 3 times in a row.
the ugly:
no real compliants here.
overall: surveying is a great system, it could be left how it is and still work very well.
When survey is used as intended, it's fine. I only ever use it to check quality of resources now.
I'm curious, does anyone actually macro sample anymore? I think most people nowcan afford and know how to operate at least personal harvesters.
The only time I see surveying being a drag is when you're just starting out as a new artisan. You can't quite afford to buy all the resources you need to make all your tools, so you macro sample to get materials for your other survey devices and crafting tools. Then if you're really in a tight spot, you might macro to get enough resources for your first set of harvies and gennies. But afteryou get over this hump, who still macros?
1.
I like the game of chase that I get to play. Surveying is like a weekly race to discover the best items in the game. Placing a harvester and putting my name up on a fat 98% high quality iron is a trophy in this game. Having a field of harvesters with your guild name on them is a sign of your guild's power, resourcefullness, and ability to cooperate.
I like that new and better items can nearly always be persued. Advanced components requiring certain rare resources make a crafter's commitment and hard work show.
I feel that afk-sampling is not a threat to the economy or personal power. Whenever I start a character on a new server I grind them up the survey tree by afk macro mining. This gives me a character base to start with. On all of my established characters I have ceased to macro-mine. It's strictly a noob tactic.
However, I do like the new mining special events and they have reduced by dependancy on macro mining.
2.
I dislike that many items are unavailable when a certain resource fails to spawn. Even with the elite weapons I personally feel that the requirements should be less specific. Advanced specific-item components would be more appropriate than a complete lack of an item for want of a specific resource (Alantium Carbonite Ore anyone?).
I dislike that surveying is a solo effort.
I dislike that surveying takes hours if not days to do it properly.
3.
I believe that a mining profession or some advanced mining skills are due. What follows is my surveying proposal to the "Mining Profession v.1" thread:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=artisan&message.id=16598
(mining exp mentioned here should be a new experience that accrus like merchant exp, except that it is granted to you control harvesters and do other "miner things")
New Survey Proposal
I think it's laughable that Survey 4 is "regional surveying". Miner's surveying should give players a *REAL* regional survey skill.
Novice Miner (6 skill points, 25,000 survey exp OR 5,000 mining exp?)
* Survey range 384m (+64 over Survey 4)
* Certification: Advanced Mineral Survey Tool
Improved Survey 1: Expert Survey Instrument Use (5 skill points, 10,000 mining exp)
* Schematic: (all) Advanced Survey Tools.
* Certification: Advanced Wind, Water, Chemical Survey Tools.
* Survey up to the maximum range given by your tool (usually 384 m, but advanced tools could be crafted).
* With an advanced tool players can sample 1 unit of any resource available on the planet regardless of the concentration. In addition the player can sample newly shifted resources.
Improved Survey 2: Basic Planetary Survey (4 skill points, 20,000 mining exp)
* Certification : Advanced Solar, Gas, Flora Survey Tools.
* Planetary Survey: The basic planetary survey gives the player a 1km overlay gradient on their planetary map of the concentrations. This survey data is a new data element. Players can view one overlay at a time on their planetary map. The data elements are like waypoints but display whole regions (gradient based on your UI color). As the player travels and surveys more the picture of the planet fills out. These data items should be sale-able (as should waypoints!!!).
Improved Survey 3: Survey Teams (3 skill points, 30,000 mining exp)
* Planetary survey range: 2km
* Group Survey: Players surveying in a group relay all planetary survey information to each other.
Improved Survey 4: Survey Droids (2 skill points, 40,000 mining exp)
* Planetary survey range: 3km
* Droid Survey: Players can direct droids with survey modules to relay survey information to them. Grouped droids with a survey unit relay planetary survey data to all group members with the "Droid Survey" skill. These droids only perform surveys when their owner (the person with the PCD) surveys. They survey the element their owner surveys.
Master Miner: (1 skill point, 640 apprenticeship exp)
* Planetary survey range: 5km (huge range, but even as master there is no free lunch)
Surveying needs to have a slightly easier endgame.
. We should be able to use our current tools to the maximum.
. We need a way to survey ranges of up-to and possibly over 1km, with very specific results.
. We need a new survey interface to accomplish the 1km+ survey.
Surveying needs to have less frustrating results (pittiful concentrations, terrain too rocky to build installations on... making the endgame easier).
Surveying needs to have a group bennefit. (making the endgame easier)
Surveying needs advanced tools & droids to assist us. (making the endgame easier)
If the shifting mechanics stay the way they are, it would be nice for resources to have an in-game indicator for how many days & hours old they are (i.e. when they first spawned).
For purposes of my post, let's assume all the survey bugs are gone (Can't sample new resources, waypoints don't move, etc...)
I see this as two different items:
- Surveying (the act of finding high concentrations of a given resource)
- Sampling (collecting smallish amounts of a resource for checking stats or making small items)
Surveying
This activity is very boring....click Survey....follow waypoint....repeat. One way to make this more interesting is to add a different survey pattern. Right now you survey in a circle (more or less), butthat doesn't make a lot of sense to always do that. If you know the resource is increasing in percentage in a given direction, wouldn't you want to focus your survey more in that direction?
Giving us two options for survey patterns would help quite a bit. Radial and Directed survey. Radial Survey would be what we have now, 320m range max. Directed Survey would survey a wedge shaped area in the direction your character is facing. If you madedirected survey have a 90 degree arc, you should have a max range of 640m. If you have a 45 degree arc, you should have a range of 905m. (These ranges come from making the area covered the same). I've put together a quick graphic of what I mean at http://swg.medievalweapons.net/forum_stuff/directed_survey.gif
Sampling
This isn't too bad right now. The popup messages make is a little more interesting when you are sampling to get resource to make small things. A few more popup types and events would be good. However, when I'm sampling to determine resource stats, I find them a bit annoying since all I want to do is pull up one unit of a resource. My thought on how to make this better for all is to create a new device (Such as "Core Sampler") that would ONLY be used to look at resource stats. It would let you look at all the stats of all (maybe of a given resource type)the resources at your location. I'm not sure the best way to implement this...should it be like a survey tool or more like a mini harvester in that it takes a lot when you put it down. This device would not gatherany resources, but would help you gather the information quickly about what is in the ground at that area.
Let me answer my own questions. I'm actually a little suprised the responce is so positive.
1. I like the fact that you can go out and get resources as needed, without the hassle of setting up a harvester,when you only need a few of a resource.
2. I do not like the 'gameplay' involved with sampling. It is boring andrequires little to no interactivity. When I am sampling - 9 times out of 10 I am watching TV, reading the message boards, reading a book, playing the guitar - anything but playing the game. Sampling always turns SWG into a background event for me, as opposed to being a game that I enjoy playing. Why does it get macroed? Because it is boring and repetitive - and it's rewarding.
3. I do not want to see a rate nerf, I want to see an interactivity increase. The pop up boxes aren't doing it for me, they are more irritatating than interactive. Perhaps turning sampling into more of a mini-game that requires a little bit of thought. Maybe something along the lines of 'minesweeper'. I just do not at all like it the way it is.
Bianca Minola
Shadow-Light wrote:
My thought on how to make this better for all is to create a new device (Such as "Core Sampler") that would ONLY be used to look at resource stats. It would let you look at all the stats of all (maybe of a given resource type) the resources at your location. I'm not sure the best way to implement this...should it be like a survey tool or more like a mini harvester in that it takes a lot when you put it down.
I like the core sampler idea. Perhaps it should produce a "core sample" as the output!
It could be a crate-like container that doesn't accept additional items into it and you can't take items out. What you can do is examine a 1 unit sample of every resource of a certain type (Ferrous metal, non-ferrous metal, low grade ore, solid petrochem, radioactive). Perhaps this device could also give us the answer to that question "how new is this resoruce?"
It can be very competitive too on highly populated planets and that adds to the interest.
As far as being hard to place extractors, where are you surveying? You need to focus on areas that you know are going to give you a good chance of placement. Flatter planets like Talus, Naboo, or even Lok come to mind. In contrast Rori and even Corellia to a lesser extent can be a real pain.
Although surveying can get tedious in the traveling I think mounts will improve this substantially. Of course I am assuming we can survey from a mount, but if we can shoot a gun I hope we can look at a little tool.
The range could be increased for sure, perhaps based on experimentation of survey tools. Give master artisans another product. Make the tools wear out from use as well.
As far as sampling I do not do it much other than to test for a resource and its quality. Message boxes are just in the way though and I do not sample to aquire resources, although in the first couple of days of play I did. Since then I am all about the extractors.
Once upon a time (and every time a new server opens) there were no harvesters. Sampling in bulk is necessary at times.
And it may be my perception, but it's boring and could use improvement, IMHO.
Bianca Minola
BiancaMinola wrote:Once upon a time (and every time a new server opens) there were no harvesters. Sampling in bulk is necessary at times.
And it may be my perception, but it's boring and could use improvement, IMHO.
Bianca Minola
For the first 24-72 hours after release I sampled, but after that first bit I only sampled to get survey to IV on my other character, after that other than getting one or two resources to examine I am automated. Besides new servers being added only happens rarely and IMO developer time to fix bootstrapping resources on a new server is a poor use of dev time.
It seems to me that you are asking for an improvement to a portion of the game that you are not using as intended. The devs have been pretty clear I think both in comments and changes (popups, increase HAM cost, lower speed) that sampling is not to replace harvesters. Sampling is just that a sample, to get 1-10 resources to test the quality and decide if you want to place harvesters on that resource.
I would be just as happy if a player just got the stats from a sample and no resources at all. Thto have to wait an extra 30 seconds on failure to sample. Especially when that delay was put there in the first place to discourage exactly the kind of play style you are asking to be improved.
Vaedross wrote:
Some of my topic & complaints extend into crafting in general.
1.
I like the game of chase that I get to play. Surveying is like a weekly race to discover the best items in the game. Placing a harvester and putting my name up on a fat 98% high quality iron is a trophy in this game. Having a field of harvesters with your guild name on them is a sign of your guild's power, resourcefullness, and ability to cooperate.
<snip>
Improved Survey 4: Survey Droids (2 skill points, 40,000 mining exp)
* Planetary survey range: 3km
* Droid Survey: Players can direct droids with survey modules to relay survey information to them. Grouped droids with a survey unit relay planetary survey data to all group members with the "Droid Survey" skill. These droids only perform surveys when their owner (the person with the PCD) surveys. They survey the element their owner surveys.
Master Miner: (1 skill point, 640 apprenticeship exp)
* Planetary survey range: 5km (huge range, but even as master there is no free lunch)
I hope you do realize that your suggested improvements are taking away the thing you most like about surveying.
Goff McMeriii
Miner
Betatoxin wrote:
BiancaMinola wrote:Once upon a time (and every time a new server opens) there were no harvesters. Sampling in bulk is necessary at times.
And it may be my perception, but it's boring and could use improvement, IMHO.
Bianca Minola
For the first 24-72 hours after release I sampled, but after that first bit I only sampled to get survey to IV on my other character, after that other than getting one or two resources to examine I am automated. Besides new servers being added only happens rarely and IMO developer time to fix bootstrapping resources on a new server is a poor use of dev time.
It seems to me that you are asking for an improvement to a portion of the game that you are not using as intended. The devs have been pretty clear I think both in comments and changes (popups, increase HAM cost, lower speed) that sampling is not to replace harvesters. Sampling is just that a sample, to get 1-10 resources to test the quality and decide if you want to place harvesters on that resource.
I would be just as happy if a player just got the stats from a sample and no resources at all. Thto have to wait an extra 30 seconds on failure to sample. Especially when that delay was put there in the first place to discourage exactly the kind of play style you are asking to be improved.
If this is the case, then why do we get the XP for sampling, and not for surveying?
I find Surveying XP growth to be sluggish at best.