Artisan Archive

I believe that usage experience points are the primary cause for the massive deflation in the economies of every galaxy. People will always grind, but without UXP they will either hoard their extra goods or just scrap them. The only thing motivating people to constantly undersell each other and sell at a loss is the desire for UXP. UXP is a very cool idea, but it seems to have spoiled the entire artisan class and all it's elite branches.

Should UXP be removed from the game?

I think UXP is great. With some of the price-gouging I see going on out there, it's hard for me to believe that undercutting is as huge a problem as you suggest. Items at the Master Artisan level and below use common enough materials that it's pretty easy for us to gather them all ourselves, without the use of harvesters or even help from other players - therefore the efective cost of the items is almost zero. If people seriously think that customers should pay 1000 creds for a CDEF rifle (even a really good one) then they deserve to be undercut.

If it's too time-consuming to gather your own materials at the higher levels, then it's probably too time-consuming for other people, too. If your competition is selling items so cheaply that you can't compete, you're doing something wrong. Either they're selling below cost, which means they will run out of cash soon and have to stop, or you're spending too much money on your harvesters and resources.

That said, some people are charging ridiculous amounts of money for resources. I won't pay more than 3 creds/unit of chemical or mineral resources, or 5 creds/unit of hides & bone. Any more than that, and I'm better off gathering it myself. I expect to see items selling for about 7-10 creds per unit of resources used - this is a comfortable markup, and should allow you to sell items at a very competitive price but still make a comfortable profit.

UXP accounts for about a third of my total crafting XP so far, and I've made a profit on almost every single thing I've sold (with the exception of 3-4 items of low-grade clothing I made for some fellow newbies).

Anagantyr, Wookie Engineer

Valcyn Server

Total noob response here, but Im not sure I completely understand the uxp concept. . .I read the manual thoroughly the day the game was released as I waited 7 hours to get my account registered and remember the print on it. But Im not sure Ive ever noticed getting any of this uxp. . .is it a one time thing or you get it everytime the item is used or what? And how do you when youve gotten it?

I think to remove UXP would do more damage than good. I like the fact that I get a steady stream of xp from all the stuff I have built. Better sorting on the bazaar would fix the sorting out the junk problems.

But as far as complaining because someone is selling something cheaper than you - that is business. Someone is always going to be able to do it faster and cheaper. If they are willing to take a loss to sell a product, then so be it.

UXP has nothing or very little to do with the economy. UXP is a nice little boost, but unless you have massive amounts of items out and about you aren't getting the thousands you need to advance.
The reason the economy is low cost, is because artisans and advanced crafters are grinding exp. They are making massive amounts of items and either junking them or giving them away, or selling a few pieces at very low cost. There is little to no market for most artisan items. Elite classes can make much better items in nearly everything an artisan makes.
With a good sampling macro, a person can gain a few thousand resources in a fairly short period of time and grind off a bunch of items to advance. Since the resources were free to him, only costing him time he wasn't in the game anyway, the items he makes are basically free.
Even with harvesters, the cost of materials is only about 1-2 credits for each resource. Most artisan items can be made for less than 100-200 credits even with a modest profit.
Lastly, most artisan items are purely junk. CDEF weapons are usable only by a non marksmen character. While there are a few characters out there like myself that don't have marksmen skills, or a few brawlers that don't, most combat types have some combat skills and as soon as you enter that tree at novice you can buy a weapon from a weaponcrafter and bypass all artisan items.
While bone armor is probably junk compared to what a armorsmith can make, the materials are fairly rare enough to make armor somewhat costly and a market for bone armor does seem to exists now.
The niche for the artisan profession is in powerups and other oddball items. A master artisan can make the best repair tools in the game.
For a person trying to move up the tree, there is little to no market for anything you make. A master of a tree has enough experimental points to make anything you make much better than you at the same cost. This isn't to say you can't sell items, but with low demand and large supply, you aren't going to see high prices.

People seem to want to make a killing selling things. What makes me laugh is resources. Wind power. It costs about 330-500 credits for every 1000 wind to produce. It might cost a bit more in some areas. I see people trying to sell wind power for 3000 credits for every thousand. It's just not cost efficient at that rate. I might pay 1/2-1 credit for each unit of wind, but I can run my own generator for 3 credits each.

UXP is a good concept for weaponsmith, armorsmith etc. The advanced profs. For artisan, it just kills it. We can't really make anything that's worth selling... bone armor for example.

I'm one of the many struggling artisans. my items have been distributed to a good twenty or so people an a week night I get about 200 UXP on a weekend day maybe a little over 1000 UXP. I personally wont sell garbage items I'll just destroy them I am an artisan, I ONLY sell the best I can offer I will not mass produce the garbage I see selling as quality items only to make credits. I guess what's why I'm doomed to a life of poverty. Conversly when I do create something worth selling I will not charge an over inflated market value for it I will ask for what I consider a fair price which is usually half of what the rest of the "artisans" (read junk dealers) are selling for

It may seem to some that UXP isn't doing any harm, but 5-7 cr per resource unit for manufactured items is a good price guideline (maybe 10-15 for bone armor), and prices on Bria are way below this point. The only good reason I can think of that someone would sell a bone chestplate for less than 750 (that's 3cr per resource unit) is UXP. And remember, anyone who buys the hides and bone is likely to be paying 10cr/unit up for them on Bria. This means you can expect to LOSE 600cr per chestplate if you aren't harvesting your own bones and hide.

Actually, UXP wouldn't be a problem if

A. The rate of manufacturing were lower
B. The GCXP for each object were proportionately higher

If we turned out half as many objects per hour, there would be a better balance between supply and demand for many items.

Now, this would mean that you would have fewer objects to sell to support your harvesters and factories, but most crafters I know are running Fedex missions for money anyway (which just isn't right).

I think you have it exactly backwards here; the reason that the Artisan market is weak is that UXP is not good enough. If I were setting it up, I'd make UXP be worth more, and I'd also have UXP gained be inversely proportional to the number of items of that class that a crafter made (and didn't destroy). That is, if I made fifty bone chestplates and only one was being used, I'd make fewer UXP than if I had made five, all of which were being used. (Although making two and having two used should give you more UXP than making one and having it used; otherwise, people would just make one of every item.)

Let's face it: grinding sucks. People grind because it's the fastest way to gain skill. If the fastest way to gain skill was to make a few high-quality items and sell them to other people rather than grinding out the cheap stuff, that's what people would do... and if there was a smaller supply, the price would increase, which would mean more profit for the Artisans. As it is now, people have to grind out zillions of items to get enough skill to get out of the Artisan tree, which means that the market is flooded with bone chestplates, powerups, and soft undershirts. (The chest is the hardest piece of bone armor to make, and yet you generally can't sell it for more than 750 credits (and more likely 500). On the other hand, bracers can go for up to 1500. The reason? You get the largest amount of GCXP from chests.) If grinding was worthless for XP gain, people would be using that time to search for better materials or do more experimentation or (heaven forfend) socializing.

That said, the real problem here is that somoene who's subsidizing their crafter income by doing other things (such as Delivery or Destroy missions) can afford to sell things at a loss, whereas someone who's trying to live on their Artisan income can't. This is not an easily soluble problem. Neither removing UXP nor increasing it will fix this. If you have two streams of income, both of them can be smaller. The only way to get around this problem that I can think of would be for doing missions to steal some of your crafting XP for the day (either by decreasing your available pool or decreasing the rate of gain). That would motivate people to try to make an income soley by crafting, which would make their prices rise above cost. It would probably also annoy a large number of people in the short term, so I doubt it will happen.

I don't see that you would improve the economy any by eliminating UEXP. I'm a Master Artisan and I have no problem selling enough Artisan goods to keep 8 harvesters and house running. Master Artisan goods are fairly quick and easy to make, with very low resource costs. If I get out there and find a nice 90% deposit of high quality materials, I can easily make 30% weapon powers and sell them at will. I can also make plenty of Travel Packs and misc stuff people need with my not so good resources to keep my stuff running. Sure, I'm not getting rich, but then again I'm not trying to. Once I make enough cash to keep my stuff running for the next day I go exploring, hunting, or just socializing. The only reason I worry about money at all is so I can create better goods at a higher more efficent rateand push them to market. It's the cycle of business... you make money to spend money to make more money... (granted that's a really simplistic way of putting it) UEXP has a positive effect on the market, in that it allows me to spend time finding better resource deposits to create better items for market. If grinding was the only XP avenue, then I'd just use the first resources I found and grind away... quality would mean nothing. If you want to improve the market, make expermination and quality actually affect more items... right now a vast amount of stuff you improve with Expermination is pointless.. Clothing is great is example. Durability means nothing right now.. so you mine as well make it with junk.

Have you tried crafting foods & drinks? I don't destroy any of them. I can spend30minutesand make 15 food/drink items, plunk them on the bazaar for a modest profit and they sell out in a few hours. I don't know exactly how much UXP I'm getting, but I'm gaining GCXP at a good rate with a relatively small time investment. Since I don't spend 2 hrs a day crafting, I don't feel that I"m grinding, but I'm gaining XP and making a small profit, so I'm having fun.

I think the best way to help the low-level artisans is to have low-level items wear out faster. A CDEF blaster will last far longer than anyone will actually use it. If CDEF weapons and bone armor were to wear out quickly, the demand for it would be higher. More sales, more profits, etc. etc.

>>>I think the best way to help the low-level artisans is to have low-level items wear out faster.

I think that's the key. People are simply grinding and throwing things away because no one will buy the low level items they can produce. But if a CDEF Pistol lasted only one hunting expedition, you might actually be able to sell them. Then being an artisan wouldn't just be a grind, you might actually take some measure of satisfaction in selling the things you make.

Actually, IMO UXP is not the issue at all. It is people not yet knowing how to price their items.

I agree with some posters that prices should be partially driven by what raw material prices can sell for at the bazaar. Current going rate seems to be between 3-4c per unit. That is a pretty hefty mark up from what I can gather based on mining costs, but if that is what the market can bear, that that is the price! So, you factor fixed costs, variable costs, add in your margin, and then you've got your price.

One things to note, people that use mining facilities and factories should be able to offer items at a reduced cost because their costs per unit are lower. A crafter that is making things custom has to spend more time which creates opportunity costs of NOT doing missions or mining for resources to sell.
Part of the current issue is that people don't value their own time highly, so they offer items at below costs. If you can do missions and make 3k per hour and in an hour you can mine 700u of a resource, then you should charge about 4.3 for the resources or you are losing money. But, since your competitor can mine resource for .43c per resource (10k in a day for 4.3k maintenance) they are able to make LOTS of money by charging that 4c per unit.

Those that mine resources to use in their own factories are able to determine costs more easily. Assume 5.3k per day for maintenance for harvesters, factory and power. Your item uses 4 resource types and you get 2.5k a day in them and it uses 36 organics, 6 water, 8 chemical, and 22 inorganics of each resource for the schematic. You can produce 69 a day with the resources on hand. Thus, if you charge 77c per item you will cover COSTS. So, you want to exceed costs and you charge 100c per item and sell out each day. That is gross 6900c per day (1600c profit). If you invested 35k in facilities, that is 21.88 days to recover startup costs. This is a real example for a stim pack. It uses organics, inorganics, water, and chemicals in about those proportions.

Given that weapons are not that much different, someone using a factory to mass produce them and is charging 3k per weapon is making a KILLING! The X-factor is how many can be sold in a day. If you can only sell one a day, you have to charge 5.3k to cover costs. The more you can sell a day the cheaper you can sell them for until you get to 77c if you sell them all. Another factor is the time spent to find the resources in the first place. That has a hidden cost that should be included in the price of the item.

So, those that complain about charging thousands for an item have a legitimate point for those that are mass producing them. But keep in mind that if people are WILLING to pay, then people can charge the high rate. But, don't freak on someone if they charge less. Eventually people will realize that they SHOULD be willing to pay less for a better item because of economies of scale. When someone that is a master has an amazing production company cranking out items for reasonable prices, people will gravitate to the business once word gets out.