Artisan Archive
Thread: Harvester limitations
Where to begin...
First, I realize that this may strike a nerve with many players, however, I have been considering this for a good two months now, and I feel that it is something that really needs to be implemented.
Every crafter needs to collect materials. However, over the past couple ofmonths of the game being live, with no character whipes, the amount of people using harvesters is steadily increasing. The problem I have with this is that a great deal of these people are not actual crafters who actualy need materials. Many of these harvesters are "donated lots". A combat class of some sort, allowing a crafter friend to utilize their lots in order to give the crafter more harvesters then they are supposed to have. Or it is non crafters who are collecting materials purely for the sake ofselling them. The end result is that there are a lot more harvesters on the landscape, and it is reducing the building room availableto those of uswho actually NEED to collect these materials.
So, I propose a harvester "certification" system. They are currently talking about a droid certification system, and there is already a weapon certification system in place. I am a master droid engineer, and I can not use a lightning cannon, so why can a bounty hunter build large harvesters?
Here is how I would do it.
Survey IV: Gain the ability to build small harvesters.
Master Artisan: Gain the ability to build medium harvesters
Advanced crafting profession: Gain the ability to build large harvesters.
Yes, Survey IV is easy to get. For any actual crafter, they will reach survey IV the first or second day of being an artisan. This makes small harvesters easily available to all artisans.However, for all those people out there who do not wish to spend the points for novice artisan and survey I, II, III andIV, no more resource farming for you. However, some people will probably still be willing to spend these points, and that is fine. This also gives more meaningand value to the survey skill branch.
With medium harvesters only available to master artisans, this will free up a lot of land space, since the non-artisan resource collectors out therewill only be able to build small harvesters at best. This also gives more value to the Master artisan skill block. With the amount of skill points required for master artisan, I think only theactual crafters willbe able to build medium harvesters.
Finally, for heavy harvesters, this ability would be granted somewhere in the skill tree of each advanced profession. Novice is way too early, but master is probably too high up. Perhaps at the top of just one of the skill branches.
You should also notice that this would still give Merchant players the ability to harvest and sellresources, which I think is appropriate since they are the selling class of the game.
I feel thatthis change would be a great improvement to all of us crafting classes. Right now, I would estimate thatas much as1/2 of the harvesters currently in the game on any given server are owned by someone who is not a crafter at all, and has only built those harvesters for one of the reasons I listed above.
No, I do not believe in buying materials from "Miners". I probably would not mind if they charged like 2 credits per unit, but most of them I have seen have demanded no less then 5 credits per unit. With finished products, the current expected price is often lower then the actual resource cost at 3 credits per unit. I just read a post from an architect who said that he had encountered someone demanding a medium house for 25k when the resource value of the house at 3 credits per unit is actualy close to 65K. Personally, I got a good deal at 60k for my medium house.
I feel that the "miners" and "lot squatting" should be eliminated, or at least reduced.
Only trick to this is how you would implement it. Everyone has harvestors out there already - are they just gonna lose them or will the be able to pull them up, then unable to place them?
I agree with your idea, but the requirements are too stiff. Do the small harvestor at Survey 1, Medium harvestor at Survey 3, and large Harvestor at Master Artisan (need more reasons to make Master Artisan worth those 6 skill points).
Also another thing to consider is that if resources are already too expensive - this will only raise the price of them by making them even more rare.
>>> The end result is that there are a lot more harvesters on the landscape, and it is reducing the building room availableto those of uswho actually NEED to collect these materials.
I would agree to this, so long as the take away the ability of artisans to use weapons and armor. I mean, why would a crafter need the ability to fight?
Combat characters need the ability to make some coin by selling resources. If we can't, we can't afford to purchase the products you make. Have you thought this through?
It's really quite selfish of you to bemoan others players getting in the way of you gobbling up all the resources you can. When I need something in the game, I buyit (from crafters, of all things). I don't whine that I should be able to make all my own armour and weapons, thus depriving you of your income. When you need resources, buy them like everyone else.
I think I'll wander over to the scout forum and lobby for a change, that all characters that aren't Master Scouts be immediately devoured when they leave the city limits. All of these crafters cluttering up the landscape is ruining my fun. And it's not very realistic for a tailor to be running a mining operation in the wilds of Corellia, is it?
Funny, I guess I was under the mistaken impression that it was possible for combat classes to obtain money some way other then taking up valuable landscape.
You want to remove weapons certs from aritsans? Do you mean like the CDEF carbine that I have fired about 10 shots with since the release day? That weapon? Go right ahead. If you feel that artisans with a carbine somehow infringes on your capability to perform your role as a combat class, then please, post a sensible explanation right here on the artisan forums as to why you feel this way, like I did above with harvesters.
I hold to my opinion. The goodresource pools are just not large enough to accomodate the number of harvesters out there currently. As I stated before, I do not believe in buying materials, at least not at the prices "miners" have been demanding for them. I feel that "miners" are more like a disease on the crafting professions. They are soaking up valuable landscape that actual crafters need, and we have lotsnon-craftingplayers making a lot of money doing something unreleated to their profession.
I am not a bounty hunter, so should I be able to take bounty hunter missions? Of course not. So why is it alright for a bounty hunter or any other fighting class to make money off of a function ofcrafters. By that I mean setting up harvesters and collecting materials.
Saying that everyone should be able to build and operate harvesters is like saying that everyone should be able to use flame throwers, take bountyhunter missions, and heal wounds, reguardless of profession.
>>> I hold to my opinion. The goodresource pools are just not large enough to accomodate the number of harvesters out there currently.
Maybe you shouldupgrade that CDEF and get a little exercise. There's plenty of space available if your willing to walk further than 1500m from town.
>>>As I stated before, I do not believe in buying materials, at least not at the prices "miners" have been demanding for them.
Then don't buy them. Problem solved.
>>>I feel that "miners" are more like a disease on the crafting professions. They are soaking up valuable landscape that actual crafters need...
<blink> Wow. Talk about a sense of entitlement. Does the whole planet belong to you, or just the parts with high resource concentrations?
>>>and we have lotsnon-craftingplayers making a lot of money doing something unreleated to their profession.
How do you know what everyone's profession is? I'm a Master Scout, Novice Artisan, and Novice Medic. Do I get to join the resource owning coterie, or is the galaxy's wealth owned only by the pure artisan elite?
>>> I am not a bounty hunter, so should I be able to take bounty hunter missions?
No, but by the same token it makes no sense for a Chef to be able to run around in the wilderness operating mining equipment, does it? When they scrapped the miner profession, they had to stick the survey ability somewhere, so they choose artisan. But if you think about the nature of the work, it makes much more sense for Survey to be in the scout or ranger professions.
>>>Saying that everyone should be able to build and operate harvesters is like saying that everyone should be able to use flame throwers...
No, it's like saying that the world's wealth does not belong to a sole few.
jmatt wrote:
I would agree to this, so long as the take away the ability of artisans to use weapons and armor. I mean, why would a crafter need the ability to fight?
To get those skills,crafters pay skill points. To use decent weapons, you burn a good number of skill points to get the certs. To use them well, you burn more skill points on support skills.
To use a harvester, you currently burn NO skill points.
To turn your example around, why not remove WEAPON certs, and let everyone use the most powerful weapons in the game?
But Seriously....
If we're going to follow the weapons model, then the personal harvesters that Artisians can make should be usable by anyone, the medium and larges should require certificaions. I'd offer the suggestion of mediums at Survey IV, and Large for the novice of any elite crafting profession. This takes the bigger units out of the hands of those who aren't willing to commit the skill points, and makes it harder for them to make money. It also reduces the number of the large harvesters on the landscape, and the personals are less of an eyesore.
>>> To use a harvester, you currently burn NO skill points.
That's because thet can't limit the wealth to one particular profession. If only Master Artisans could use heavies, those scouts with puny little PMEs would have no chance.
But I wonder if the artisans would feel this way if the Devs had decided to stick something like mining and surveying in the scout/ranger tree, which seems a more natural fit. Would artisans still be yelling for certs if it meant they had to crawl up the scout tree to compete?
I doubt it.
You're missing some logic in your arguement.
You are saying that the prices will/are going up on items you sell because non-crafters are hogging all of the resources?
Well, you need to realize who are BUYING your higher priced goods on a daily basis. The same people who are selling you your resources!
If I mine a material or two for extra cash, then what's the problem if I sell said resources for a fair market value? The more you buy your resources from us, the more time you can spent building your crafting XP and gaining new items to create. Which are what we, the non-crafters, need!
Personally I price due to overall quality:
100's = 2cr per
200-499 = 3cr per
500-799 = 4cr per
800-999 = 5cr per
1000 = 6cr per
I think this is fair. I've priced this against others on the bazaar and polled some crafters as well, who seem to agree. If you find you're being raped by inferior goods being sole to high, then don't buy them! You'll find fairly priced resources on there!
I think your problem is you want it all to yourself. Mining and Crafting. That way you maximize your profits!
And you make it seem like we harvest all over the place. As a non-crafter advancing in elite professions we don't have the time, nor the resources to do so. I think we can handle maybe 1-3 harvesters tops. I plan on only bothering with 1 because I just don't have the time.
So what you're saying is, only artisans need materials so only we should be able to place harvestors?
This is dumb.
High level craftsmen are completely incapable of supplying themselves with resources. It just cannot be done. You try collecting 35 different resources with 5 lots (don't forget you need a house, factories, power). It's impossible.
So what do they do? They buy them. But from who?
Mostly the people you don't want owning harvestors.
I've never had a problem placing harvestors. I have 5 fusion generators. The things are huge. I found space for all 5 outside Keren. Maybe they're a few percent off the max, but they're there.
If your idea goes through resource prices will sky rocket. Then if you can't mine all your own resources (which the higher level types won't be able to) you'll be out of business.
Brilliant Holmes. Simply brilliant.
I spend a serious amount of time doing this, and yes, I do make a good income off of it. I am torn, because it's very very difficult for me to balance mining, entertaining, and combat, but I'm trying hard at it. I had points in business specifically to make it easier to sell resources, but my vendor was behaving poorly, and I needed the skill points elsewhere, so I dropped it.
Now--what would I do if there were harvester certifications? I would be somewhat happy, because it would cut down on the PA mass harvestig operations to a great degree. (You could still do it, just not as efficiently.) I think that's good because I do think you should get something out of being devoted to a certain kind of activity. I would scream if large harvesters were available only to elite crafters--it's ridiculous enough that I have to craft in order to gain experience in business, rather than getting it from selling things. If there were a resource gatherer/miner profession that built off of survey, I'd expect to see large harvesters there. And I'd drop other skills (I am at zero skill points available) in order to join that profession, even though it would be very painful for me to do so.
Now, what would the benefit be with a small-for-anybody, medium-at-survey-4, large-at-novice-miner world? Well, it would make the practice of a no-survey person plopping a harvester down next to other harvesters you find in the bush less useful: they'd be limited to smalls. It would make the practice of making everyone in your PA a mining mule less useful: they'd be limited to smalls unless they wanted to spend 29 skill points on mining. It wouldn't hurt master artisans much--they still get mediums, and larges aren't far away if they really want them. It might hurt the most upper level crafters, but they already need so many lots for a store, factories, and the like that they're going to need another character's support (whether a friend or through buying from dedicated harvesters) anyway.
The miner profession would need to be fleshed out, of course, so that there were other benefits to going further in it. Which means I'd almost certainly end up being a no-longer-master-dancer, no-longer-image-designer-at-all teras-kasi-novice in order to complete at least two of the miner lines. (There's been much discussion over what sort of things such a profession would have in it, so I won't go into it here.) I would probably go master miner, in fact, and not be master in either of my other chosen professions.
All this because, **edit** it, I just like prospecting for resources that much, and I don't have any desire to actually make things at all.
Anyway, prices seem to be leveling out somewhat--which means higher prices for things that should have higher prices (housing), lower prices for things that should have lower prices (massively bulk commodities like low grade ore, low quality resources, and power), and things should start running smoothly as that change really starts to take hold.
I suspect that the way that macro sampling has been at least reduced by the recent sampling changes has contributed to this, as low-end prices are bound by cash spent on power and upkeep and overall efficiency is increased as people realize that, yes, small harvesters really *are* superior to hand sampling.
Rant rant rant.
End of rant.
Sorry to disagree.....but
As a master doctor I need alot of resources to keep you guys healthy.....especially since very few of you ever tip. Wonder if I can get someone to make me a house or weapon for free.....? Harvesters are the life line of my work....without them the physician profession is dead.
Cherri