Artisan Archive
Thread: Finally! A non-grind/non-exploitable Crafting System!
(repost from Discussion forum, where it lasteda record 12.1 seconds on the first page! whoo!)
Ok, Ok ... I'm feeling sympathetic for the overworked Devs, so I'm going to waive my usual consulting fees on this one! :-)
This is how you fix your crafting/economic system problems.
First, a basic list of the issues and how they play off each other as a system:
1. Artisans MUST produce items to advance.
2. Because they must do so to advance Artisans produce many more items very quickly than can possibly be used by other players.
3. They do not have any "commodity" type items to make & sell, that need to be consumed in the volumes they can create.
4. Because there is a glut of items, Artisans cannot make any money selling them to other players.
5. Because they can't sell many items to other players, Usage XP is pointless.
6. Because of issues 1-5, many Artisans simply craft & destroy for XP, which puts a large and pointless drag on the database with insert/delete transactions.
7. Because Artisans can't make any money plying thier trade, they cannot afford to buy materials - so they must gather thier own.
8. Artisans can run Delivery Missions for money, but then they aren't advancing (no Crafting XP).
9. Because they can craft faster than sampling can supply materials, they want to AFK Macro over night to build up materials.
10. Harvesters can eventually fill the need for materials and reduce the desire to AFK Macro Sample, yet the Artisan cannot maintain them with income from his trade, and so must either do Delivery Missions (no Crafting XP) or sell some of the materials (less materials available for advancement crafting).
11. Factories can eventually automate a lot of the production, but due to they way they were implemented, they were exploitable for fast XP gains and thus nerfed to 10% XP.
System problem #1 - Starting Artisans cannot make money with thier craft, excluding them from being consumers in the economy.
Fixes:
Crafting Missions - I see these have been added to the Test Center. Hopefully they are not the same crafting missions you were giving out from the NPCs already, that have you run all over creation to craft ONE ITEM. The Missions that will help starting Artisans should give the opportunity for a similar amount of Crafting XP as a Destroy Mission provides for Weapon XP, plus a similar amount of credits.
Worthwhile Crafting Missions should be for Bulk Orders of items, with bonus XP and faction standing (not Faction Points, unless a Faction Mission) for higher than average quality items (to give a tangible benefit for Experimentation and good materials). More advanced crafting missions should have material type requirements, multiple item types and / or minimum stat requirements. The quantities of items need to be in the neighborhood of the number of items an Artisan could grind out in the target completion time for the mission. They need to award the current XP specified for the creation of the items, plus a quality bonus. They need to pay credits in the same range as Destroy/Delivery missions that take a similar amount of time.
To avoid the create/delete database issue, every crafting mission should give the player a transport container to hold the items crafted for the mission. To craft an item for the mission you would dbl click the transport container, the code would find the next crafting tool of the necessary type that was not busy, and use it to bring up the crafting screens. When the crafting is done, the counter on the mission container is incremented, and the items stats would be combined with the containers stats using a weighted average. No actual item gets created (no insert into the DB) and no item to be deleted from the DB.
Now, the most important part.
Remove General Crafting XP for simply making an item, so the ONLY WAY to "grind - advance" is by doing Crafting Missions (Contracts would be a better word).
What this does:
1. Because Artisans can no longer advance simply by cranking out tons of useless items, they won't. No items will be added to the database and deleted from the database simply for the purpose of "skilling up", they will all be disappearing into Mission Transport Containers.
2. There will no longer be a glut of items on the market and no motivation for Artisans to "give away" items or dump them all on the Bazaar, because any items they make outside of a Crafting Contract (mission) will give them NO XP.
3. Artisans will have an income that can support the option of purchasing bulk materials from other players, rather than having to Sample themselves, or to purchase and support Harvesters if they choose to go that route.
However:
To support the small trickle of demand for items from other players, items crafted outside of Crafting Missions should give double the normal crafting XP, but all as Usage XP (similar amount as in the current system). Because there will now be a "demand", those items created for use by another player will actually have some market value.
Factory Side Effects:
Since the only way to "grind-advance" is through a Crafting Contract, Factories can easily serve thier purpose of freeing Artisans from the need for manual crafting. Simply put the Crafting Mission Transport Container in the Output Hopper, insert appropriate Schematic and Materials and press Go - all output from the factory goes into the Transport Container - again producing no items to clog the database.
Since there is only one Transport Container per Item type in the Contract, multiple factories would only be viable for advanced Crafting Contracts that required more than one type of item, or for filling two Contracts at once.
Since the XP is tied to Contract Completion - using Factories to advance requires no nerfage, since it is controlled by the Crafting Contract System and not by how big a pile of resources you have.
That is the base concept for Phase 1.
Bushwa
To support the small trickle of demand for items from other players, items crafted outside of Crafting Missions should give double the normal crafting XP, but all as Usage XP (similar amount as in the current system).
Since all (most) advancement in this system would be based on crafting missions, the player based economy is then killed. It sounds like this would be a complete redefinition of the class, which would turn off a lot of the people who took artisan for it's current form.
The problem I see with only having UXP is that people will still grind their wares and give them away in hopes of getting someone to use them for the XP. On the other hand, if the benefit of running crafting missions is so great, nobody would want to make anything for other players, unless the price was sky high. So you'd either get people giving things away, or extorting non-crafters for items they need.
/shrug
I would like to see a bonus for quality though. Maybe change the XP for an item from about 2 per resource used to (X per resource) * (average % of item stats) with another factor for complexity in there somewhere. Critical failures should give some XP too. You learn from your mistakes, right
lund0529 wrote:
To support the small trickle of demand for items from other players, items crafted outside of Crafting Missions should give double the normal crafting XP, but all as Usage XP (similar amount as in the current system).
Since all (most) advancement in this system would be based on crafting missions, the player based economy is then killed. It sounds like this would be a complete redefinition of the class, which would turn off a lot of the people who took artisan for it's current form.
The problem I see with only having UXP is that people will still grind their wares and give them away in hopes of getting someone to use them for the XP. On the other hand, if the benefit of running crafting missions is so great, nobody would want to make anything for other players, unless the price was sky high. So you'd either get people giving things away, or extorting non-crafters for items they need.
/shrug
I would like to see a bonus for quality though. Maybe change the XP for an item from about 2 per resource used to (X per resource) * (average % of item stats) with another factor for complexity in there somewhere. Critical failures should give some XP too. You learn from your mistakes, right
There are folks who swear they never grind and just make things to sell to other players, so the UXP route would still work for them - I think this method works mostly in the Domestic Arts tree though, where you can make clothes and packs for players. There really isn't a lot in the lower Eng. tree that folks want to buy in enough quantities to keep a crafter busy and advancing (more on that in Phase 2 :-) ).
As with all things involving people, nothing is black & white, on or off, alive or dead. These are not "binary" issues - they are percentages, trends and curves. The current economy is not "dead" but you can't get a decent price for a CDEF weapon on the Bazaar either because it's flooded with junk. This system removes a lot of the motivation (and need) for putting "everything" crafted into a players hands - so you can "Contract grind away" for skill and get some cash for it, yet still skim your higest quality experimented items for sale to players.
It'sforces a "mindset" change, where the results should be a reduction of low end crap in the market allowing a reasonable price to be charged for a quality low end weapon (CDEF). Those who "grind and give away" will not be advancing as fast or making the mission payouts of those who do the Crafting missions - so there will be less of them.
Bushwa
duncje wrote:
They've already tried to fix the grinding/database issue by allowing crafters to "practice". It uses the materials, but does not create an item, therefore easing the database strain of pointless creating/deleting. Crafters craft things, by not granting GCXP, you nerf the entire class, making it completely reliable on missions (assuming they work correctly). There is NO other class completely dependant on missions, with a possible exception of BH (I have no experience with BH's so I don't know for sure). So basically, instead of "grinding" items, we "grind" out missions. I would rather have more types of items such as powerups that provide good value to the end user, but also expire fairly quickly, making them valuable to both the crafter and the end user.
Yes, it is a decent enough "quick fix" for the database issue but it doesn't resolve the starting Artisan economy issues (i.e. no income for plying your trade).
You are correct that instead of "grinding out items" players would "grind out Contracts".Think about that for a second:
Current way: Grind out items for XP (now with practice) using up 10k Aluminum sitting in one spot doing nothing but making Survey Tools (my personal "grinder").
result: Boredom, carpal tunnel syndrome, 370 crafting iterations (no output), 20350 XP, 0 credits. Several days gone by with nothing but Surveying and grinding.
Proposedway: Take Contracts that use whatever materials you have on hand for highest return available (example Crafting missions):
1. A ____ outpost at (____ , ____ ) needs a shipment of 100 high quality CDEF Carbines for (insert pithy RP story element here).
You then grind 'em out into the Transport Container. You also have a choice - make the base weapons or Experiment them up? Make the base weapon, get the base XP and credits. Make higher quality weapons (takes longer, but is a bit more interesting) and get more XP more credits and possibly some possitive faction standing with the recieving customers faction.
Then you have to deliver them as well, to finish the contract.
Next contract you have to possibly make something different.
result: No boredom (much less, at the very least), more variety = a "more fun" experience, because the game system "forces" variety on you to advance.
Bushwa
result: Boredom, carpal tunnel syndrome, 370 crafting iterations (no output), 20350 XP, 0 credits.
JDspeeder1 wrote:
Bushwa, I like your idea, but, like has already been said,this isolates artisans into a self-contained grind game. I think the perfect solution to that is to have crafting missions not pay much. That way artisans, like real-life manufacturers, rely on customer demand for their income. They use contracts to build their XP up until they can make something people actually care about. They put these on the bazaar to make money or, after they make enough money, get a shop. This keeps them in the economy but still avoids useless grinding.
Very true about the payout for the missions, they would be similar to the payouts for other missions of similar time duration - but would not be paying out anywhere near what you could make if you successfully sold those same items.
So you could get a contract for 20 High Quality CDEFs and make 1200 credits, and 20 CDEFs worth of XP for making base CDEFs - a bit more for Experiemented up CDEFs and not have to compete with the top of the line CDEFs being put out by the Master Artisans with the best materials.
A few of those, and now you can afford to maintain a few harvesters while you gain skill, or buy a stack of materials off the bazaar to continue filling contracts.
Once you can put out competitive product, then you start selling off your premium CDEFs to players for the "big bucks". :-)
Bushwa
kasuta wrote:
I'm one of the ones who tries to make good items and sell every one. I'm fairly successful--although last night my test 'grenade wiring kit' came back to me unsold, is there any market for those? Who uses grenades? At any rate, I enjoy playing and making things for people. However, it's taken me a month now to hit Master Artisan. That's fine, but I'm looking up the skill tree for tailor and thinking, man that's a lot of XP to get by making clothes that don't even decay. Now I'm all for making it tough to reach elite professions...but I have been playing 3-4 hours a day and am just reaching Master Art, it'll be another week at least just to get to novice tailor. Basically, the current system says, unless you powergame, you better enjoy the mid-level crafting range. Is that fair to the casual gamer? By casual I say 3-4 hours per night, not grinding and dumping. I guess with the new practice mode I can grind and not have to worry about destroying...but I like crafting for people! I think one HUGE HUGE issue is clothing not decaying! Do you realize what a market that will create! Please please bring decay in quickly! I think with clothing decay and the new practice mode, things will be a lot better for us crafters.
I agree, it would be nice if clothing at least took some damage from combat activity. :-)
Basically your playstyle wouldn't be affected at all, you could continue on having a decent time and interacting with other players - possibly getting even more UXP out of the bargain.
Bushwa
I'm lucky I've been with this game from day one and thus everything I make has been sold... (aside from now when I have been grinding armorweave segments to gain xp because I'm falling behind the front line) But new armorsmiths and artisans makeing bone armor can't even hope to compare with me... Frankly I want that Force sencitive slot... and sell for barely enough to make a profit and keep my mineral extractors runing. I have a feeling for me it will be based more on how many people have worn my stuff than anything else.
Anyways, I have Tech IV now so my resistances are 16-24% and prices are maybe 500cr more than the newbs that have 6-8%. How are they supposed to ever make something that will compare? I also fail less and use the same amount of resorses. It seems like they will have to grind till they hit Tech IV and padded armor at least. If they can't make money how do they buy their syntetic cloth/reinforced fiber/bio engeneered/hide and bone?
I think there must be something that makes the lower levels usefull... it will be very painfull to go into armorsmithing when there's 20+ master's on the server. It only takes one to lower their price to bare minimum and then everyone has too, and then lower quality stuff can't be bought for a lower price.
Anyways, there's something that needs to be done that's for sure.
-Finibhire
Expert Armorsmith
UXP sucks, it's such a low amount that I wouldn't even bother with it for the most part. It's liek a nice little boost after you make the item but it can't be more than aobut 5% of the actual xp I gain by making the stuff. I dont' know for sure if that's correct % but still it's low.
And once I get into a faction I'll be about roleplaying... I'll want to help my buddies and destroy my enimies. What goes around comes around. I get nothing from charging lots for my armor after I reach master. Really what good would it do me to have 1 million credits in the bank. I currently have about 600k and I'm not really trying. It's all useless I can keep my stuff runing for months without making any money right now. haveing only 10 slots for buildigns and two factories... it's really pointless to have more money than you need.
And again back to the idea that UXP might have something to do with my force sencitive slot (seems logical to me) I would want to get as much of that as possible. As long as there are people with my mindset anyone under master will be pretty much screwed. I would consider making my stuff worth more if it would help the newbie armorsmiths, but I wont' do it at the expence of other masters underbiding me and me not getting more sales.
The problem still exists reguardless of my single actions... the game dynamics should fix the problem not the people in the game chaning the way they play. Oh and also my composit armor is barely comparable to the faction armor you can get. 30% resist everything? I haven't even scored that once on one of my stats never mind all them. If my prices arent' cheap people will just buy that faction armor all the time.
Just a couple more things to think about.
-Finibhire
Expert Armorsmith
The player economy is screwed anyway....people are selling resources from anywhere from 5:1 to 10:1. You're not going to be able to sell something that requires 100 resources for 1000 just to make your money back, artisans are getting shafted because they have to sell them for less than they paid for the resources. i.e. everytime an artisan makes something, he's loosing money.
lund0529 wrote:
To support the small trickle of demand for items from other players, items crafted outside of Crafting Missions should give double the normal crafting XP, but all as Usage XP (similar amount as in the current system).
Since all (most) advancement in this system would be based on crafting missions, the player based economy is then killed. It sounds like this would be a complete redefinition of the class, which would turn off a lot of the people who took artisan for it's current form.
The problem I see with only having UXP is that people will still grind their wares and give them away in hopes of getting someone to use them for the XP. On the other hand, if the benefit of running crafting missions is so great, nobody would want to make anything for other players, unless the price was sky high. So you'd either get people giving things away, or extorting non-crafters for items they need.
/shrug
I would like to see a bonus for quality though. Maybe change the XP for an item from about 2 per resource used to (X per resource) * (average % of item stats) with another factor for complexity in there somewhere. Critical failures should give some XP too. You learn from your mistakes, right