Armorsmith Archive

Thread: Layers in the CURB: An Analysis

Brutus_Krylop
Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:39 pm
#1

Abstract


In the current armor crafting system, layer creation and templating is perhaps the most crucial step. Layers are what allow such a wide variety of resist templates. They affect special protection and base effectiveness. They can have a huge impact on encumberance. Layers are where the differences between a 10- and 12-point smith become apparent. Few smiths would even consider making a suit of Composite in the current system without taking advantage of all three layer slots.


In the new system, however, layers are shown to have exceedingly poor utility, particularly when considered with their large resource requirements and high complexity / factory time. When you factor in that the resource usages for the various layers have radically changed, introducing a number of rare, named resources that armorsmiths have never used before, the problems become even worse.


Because environmental / elemental damage (Acid, Cold, Electrical, Heat) is so small and rare compared to kinetic / energy damage, it can be reasonably assumed that those particular layers are useless, and therefore only Kinetic, Energy, and Primus layers are worth possibly using. In the following discussion, I will investigate these three layers when applied to Assault Armor.


Note: Similar numbers will emerge if you use Reconnaisance Armor (reverse the kinetic / energy scenarios) or Battle Armor (decreases in protection will always be larger than increases).



Baseline (Unlayered)


Using Bloodfin resources as an example, I can make the following unlayered Advanced Assault Armor:


Kinetic: 6922 (52.18%)
Energy: 4922 (42.03%)
A/C/E/H: 5922 (47.61%)

Pretty decent resists, considering the new system. When made unlayered, a full suit only requires 4,435 resource units and 12,936 seconds of factory time.



Kinetic Layering


I can make kinetic layers that give a kinetic bonus of 89 and an energy penalty of 90. If I use twelve kinetic layers so as to maximize the kinetic resist, the following stats emerge:


Kinetic: 7990 (55.97%, +3.78%)
Energy: 3842 (34.88%, -7.15%)
A/C/E/H: 5922 (47.61%, no change)


So, for an additional 7,392 resource units and 40,128 seconds of factory time per suit, I have barely improved my kinetic protection while hampering my energy protection by more than I have improved my kinetic!



Energy Layering


If I were instead to use energy layers, so as to try to balance the kinetic and energy protections, I could make the following (+81 Energy Layers):


Kinetic: 5938 (47.69%, -4.50%)
Energy: 5894 (47.46%, +5.43%)
A/C/E/H: 5922 (47.61%, no change)


This is slightly better than the previous scenario, but the benefits are still questionable.



Advanced (Primus) Layering


Perhaps Advanced Primus layers (+Kinetic/Energy, -A/C/E/H) will be better. If I can make +65 Primus Layers, I can make the following:


Kinetic: 7702 (55.06%, +2.87%)
Energy: 5702 (46.46%, +4.44%)
A/C/E/H: 5130 (43.27%, -4.34%)


Not too shabby, but Primus Layers will require an additional 10,692 resource units and 43,296 seconds of factory time per suit. One could also mix and match Primus and Energy or Kinetic Layers, depending on the exact stats desired, but I won't investigate those combinations here.



Conclusion


Layers in the new armor crafting system still offer a modicum of benefits, but nowhere near what layers provide in the current system. They will require an inordinate amount of resources and factory time when compared to what is required for an unlayered suit. One could reasonably conclude that the market value of a layered suit compared to an unlayered suit will likely not cover the production costs.


What would ameliorate these issues?


  • Dramatically reduce the complexity of all layers.

  • Dramatically reduce the quantity of resources required for layers.

  • Add a new experimental line (or lines) to layers:


    • General Protection, so as to increase the "base effectiveness" of layered armor, OR

    • A line to reduce the penalty incurred by using the layer

If no steps such as these are taken, layers will prove to be yet another unused schematic in the armorsmith's crafting tool, and the problem of "cookie-cutter armor" will be exacerbated.




Ehril Gospic -- Elder Jedi
Fahoo Gua'gads -- Elder Armorsmith
The Ironhead Armor Shop will return!

_Monroe_
Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:43 pm
#2
I agree. I think the primus layers will only be in PvP suits and even then they will cost a LOT of credits. Energy layers maybe for BH. Other than that everything else is pointless.



Monroe - Medic (formerly Kiom)
Xana - Jedi
Tarantella - Structures
Cebak - Entertainer
Brutus_Krylop
Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:45 pm
#3




_Monroe_ wrote:

I agree. I think the primus layers will only be in PvP suits and even then they will cost a LOT of credits. Energy layers maybe for BH. Other than that everything else is pointless.




The funny thing about energy layers for BHs is that they are certified for assault armor, which has the energy penalty. If BHs want maximum energy protection, they'll be looking primarily for 12EL Recon or 12EL Battle.





Ehril Gospic -- Elder Jedi
Fahoo Gua'gads -- Elder Armorsmith
The Ironhead Armor Shop will return!

_Monroe_
Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:49 pm
#4




Brutus_Krylop wrote:




_Monroe_ wrote:

I agree. I think the primus layers will only be in PvP suits and even then they will cost a LOT of credits. Energy layers maybe for BH. Other than that everything else is pointless.




The funny thing about energy layers for BHs is that they are certified for assault armor, which has the energy penalty. If BHs want maximum energy protection, they'll be looking primarily for 12EL Recon or 12EL Battle.







Double mastery time for BHs.



Monroe - Medic (formerly Kiom)
Xana - Jedi
Tarantella - Structures
Cebak - Entertainer
Cianhydle
Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:51 pm
#5

Here's some data I gathered for the Tempest Server, it shows the number of spawns with respect the new materials we need to make layers. These spawns range from September 2003 (the time our server's resources started shifting) to the April 2005. Some of the data is misleading because they are JTL spawns. This does not look too horrible; a couple of these resource are gated very high.


Doesn't change the fact the "leveling of the resource field" and the "dumbing down" of the profession hurts veteran armorsmiths at the benifit of new armorsmiths. Honestly, it might be somewhat fun to "regather" our resource and make our perfect layers again. However, we will still be in the same position down the road; we're all gonna have our big stacks of the best resources; it might just take longer because of the infrequent spawns.


Layers

Acid
20 non-ferrous metal
12 polymer
10 crystalline gemstone
14 malab siliclastic ore (21 spawns)

Cold
20 non-ferrous metal
12 polymer
10 laboi crystalline gemstone (17 spawns)
14 malab siliclastic ore (21 spawns)

Electrical
20 non-ferrous metal
12 polymer
10 Bal'ta'ran amorphous gemstone (16 spawns)
14 ardanium siliclastic ore (15 spawns)

Energy
20 ferrous metal
12 polymer
10 plexite amorphous gemstone (15 spawns)
14 alantium carbonite ore (13 spawns)

Heat
20 ferrous metal
12 polymer
10 kerol fire-gem crystalline gemstone (17 spawns)
14 frasium carbonite ore (15 spawns)

Kinetic
20 ferrous metal
12 polymer
10 amorphous gemstone
14 chromite carbonite ore (12 spawns)

Advanced Armor Layer Primus + kin/ener - stun/acid/blast
25 neutronium steel (27 spawns)
14 polymer
14 gravatonic fiberplast (10 spawns)
16 vintrium extrusive ore (14 spawns)
12 perovskitic aluminum (11 spawns)

Advanced Armor Layer Secundas + heat/cold - acid/ener/elec
25 thallium copper (31 spawns)
14 polymer
14 gravatonic fiberplast (10 spawns)
16 chronamite extrusive ore (13 spawns, 1 this year)
12 perovskitic aluminum (11 spawns)

Advanced Armor Layer Tertius + blast/elec - heat/cold/ener
25 conductive borcarbitic copper (10 spawns)
14 polymer
14 gravatonic fiberplast (10 spawns)
16 dylinium intrusive ore (14 spawns)
12 perovskitic aluminum (11 spawns)
UmmonPrime
Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:52 pm
#6
So after the CU, layer may not even be needed.... that may be a good thing.



Elood- Trader - Retired AS/SW

Elood'- Jedi- I know, I suck. Bite me

Dark Sword, Naboo 6932 2054 Loots


_Monroe_
Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:03 pm
#7




UmmonPrime wrote:

So after the CU, layer may not even be needed.... that may be a good thing.




Well lets forget the elementals because "so far" that damage is insignificant. That leaves us with kinetic, energy and primus layers. I can't imagine why you would want to put in kinetic layers when it will lower your energy resists. What if I only PvE you ask? All ranged creatures seem to do energy damage. So even in PvE you need energy protection.


Energy layers might be something worth putting into a "jedi hunter" suit. Beyond that, because of the lowering of the kinetic resists I don't expect to ever make these.


Primus layers. This increases kinetic and energy. A nice layer no doubt. But to quad layer a suit takes 10k+ resources per suit. I also have a feeling that if you are near the cap for your unlayered suits, adding quad primus layers might not gain very much resists percentage-wise because of the curve. So maybe, just maybe you'll make primus quad suits for PvP. At a hefty price though.





Monroe - Medic (formerly Kiom)
Xana - Jedi
Tarantella - Structures
Cebak - Entertainer
UmmonPrime
Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:06 pm
#8




_Monroe_ wrote:




UmmonPrime wrote:

So after the CU, layer may not even be needed.... that may be a good thing.




Well lets forget the elementals because "so far" that damage is insignificant. That leaves us with kinetic, energy and primus layers. I can't imagine why you would want to put in kinetic layers when it will lower your energy resists. What if I only PvE you ask? All ranged creatures seem to do energy damage. So even in PvE you need energy protection.


Energy layers might be something worth putting into a "jedi hunter" suit. Beyond that, because of the lowering of the kinetic resists I don't expect to ever make these.


Primus layers. This increases kinetic and energy. A nice layer no doubt. But to quad layer a suit takes 10k+ resources per suit. I also have a feeling that if you are near the cap for your unlayered suits, adding quad primus layers might not gain very much resists percentage-wise because of the curve. So maybe, just maybe you'll make primus quad suits for PvP. At a hefty price though.





I lucked out on primus layers having a SW alt. Have all the resources for it already. But you are right, doesn't look like layering will make much sense.




Elood- Trader - Retired AS/SW

Elood'- Jedi- I know, I suck. Bite me

Dark Sword, Naboo 6932 2054 Loots


Brutus_Krylop
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:28 pm
#9




UmmonPrime wrote:

So after the CU, layer may not even be needed.... that may be a good thing.





It's a "good thing" in terms of keeping total resource and factory costs down, but I'd say it's a "bad thing" in that it severely limits variety of armor builds and leads to cookie-cutter armor crafting.



Ehril Gospic -- Elder Jedi
Fahoo Gua'gads -- Elder Armorsmith
The Ironhead Armor Shop will return!

_Monroe_
Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:35 pm
#10




Brutus_Krylop wrote:




UmmonPrime wrote:

So after the CU, layer may not even be needed.... that may be a good thing.





It's a "good thing" in terms of keeping total resource and factory costs down, but I'd say it's a "bad thing" in that it severely limits variety of armor builds and leads to cookie-cutter armor crafting.



I agree! It is rather sad that all of the work and effort went into making these new schems when we won't be using them.


But on the other hand we can look forward to "I want a left padded bracer green with red padding and a ubese right bracer black with a tantel chestplate kind of a blue......".


I think it is great actually that we won't be seeing people all in the same armor now, but there still won't be a variety as far as what gets made.





Monroe - Medic (formerly Kiom)
Xana - Jedi
Tarantella - Structures
Cebak - Entertainer
Brutus_Krylop
Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:52 pm
#11
Bumping this so that our "developer" can read and maybe think.



Ehril Gospic -- Elder Jedi
Fahoo Gua'gads -- Elder Armorsmith
The Ironhead Armor Shop will return!

Envoy3113
Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:32 am
#12
Elemental damage is low on all weapons, so in PvP it stands to seem as insignifigant, any clue on elemental damage from PvE mobs?



There comes a time in every mans life when 86 years is just too damn long...
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