Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Publish 7 Crafting Change some confirmation
Surprisingly, the original poster is correct in his hopes: With the system,weassumeperfect resources = perfect weapon.
Keldarin wrote:
Yes, it is a nerf for crafters who use low quality resources. At the top end with perfect resources the system works exactly the same. I realize perfect resources are almost never possible so it's a nerf to one degree or another for people, but for most experienced crafters using good resources it should be a minimal change.
And, in regards to your hopes:
Keldarin wrote:
Another thing you should see with this change is an increased value for those amazing successes. I've seen a lot of discussion about these lately and one thing I've never heard mentioned is the fact that an Amazing Success increases the Resource Max for a given attribute. This means that after an Amazing Success the maximum that attribute can be raised to has increased, additionally combined with this change every experimentation point on that attribute will have an increased affect.
Lastly, the most important points of this thread were addressed:
Keldarin wrote:
Resources which are completely missing a required attribute have that attribute excluded from the attribute weightings. This did not change and will not be changing.
Concerning resources that have attributes that don't ever reach 1000: This was known when setting up the initial draft schematics and was taken into consideration when determining the crafting ranges for that schematic. While it is a fact that you can never hit the maximum attribute as it is defined in the data you can hit the intended max as the numbers were scaled upwards to compensate.
So there you have it. See you on Test next month.
Now, apparently this is from the correspondant forum, and Keldarin is a Developer, but I can't confirm that myself.
However, What this has confirmed (subject to confirmation of who Keldarin is) is that the new Crafting changes are indeed going to be as I had thought, meaning that weapons, armor and other craftables with more than 1 experimentable attribute are going to be of a lesser quality than they are now. It is a different system to the one that was put on Test Center once before however. The last part shows that resources with "missing" attributes will not adversely affect crafting, which is good news.
Now, before you all go out and start hoarding that 80% composite you've just made, please take a minute to read on.
What we need to do is continue to wait until the code arrives on Test Center. Once it's there, we need to work with those that have the appropriate skills to test it. Then discuss where we can go from there.
I still would very much like to know why they are making these changes, and what they hope to achieve by doing so, so that we can try to work out a way for everyone to be happy.
There are some good changes in there too though, amazing sucesses will give much better results, and will even allow things to be pushed past the limits of the resources, however, I can't really see this making up for the fact that it is going to cost more experimentation points just to get half way to where we can now.
I run the risk of defeating my own purpose here, but 1 of my 2 accounts is home to a Master Armorsmith, and I really don't think I'm going to enjoycrafting things under this new "It's only worth crafting with 50cpu uber resources" system, if you get my drift...
Thank you for your time
-Orobas
I like this new system. Right now, dedicated master crafters do not have much of an edge over a crafter who is new to the profession. Now, the longer you conserve resources, the more experimentation points you earn, and the more you tinker with schematics will actually have a much more noticeable result. Kudos to the development team for adding a "positive" nerf.
-Wicca
This isn't a positive nerf, and I'm going to use a non-armor example to show it, but I'm reasonably sure it applies to armor too:
The Rebulic Blaster. Currently, one of the resources required is Plumbum Iron. Plumbum Iron has never (and will never) spawned with conductivity over 100.
What this means currently, is that it takes about 4 points to max out damage on a republic blaster, leaving 6 points to go into HAM costs and Accuracy.
When the change goes in, it will take all 10 points (you might get lucky with an amazing, and only need 9 I suppose) to max out damage, because the conductivity is reducing the amount you're getting from sucessful experimentation. This means that the gun is less accurate and/or more costly than before. No amount of careful resource hoarding is going to change this, plumbum iron cannot have conductivity greater than 100.
What this now means is that weaponsmiths are going to hoard rebulic blasters (among other things), but since they stopped crates of 'pre-nerf' FWG5s from working in the last patch, they're going to hoard them out of crates, which is going to kill the server.
I'm sure that armor has the same issues with capped resource attributes - bone deffinitely has malleability caps on some types, as do some of the chemical types I think. Things like axidite iron and beyrillus copper will probably have low SR or MA caps, which before didn't matter, you just had to accept slightly higher HAM or what have you, now it means that items are going to be affected across the board.
Most of all it's going to be a nightmare trying to get large amounts of the "good stuff" when it finally spawns, leading to more database issues as everyone starts hoarding as much as they possibly can.
The biggest and most obvious impact is going to be the casual players. With the huge increase in resource quality importance, it's never going to be worth playing even a "casual-ish" crafter, because there just won't be any competition.
I also echo a comment I made in another post: Imagine trying to explain to KilLa Do0d why you can't make 80% composite anymore...
Now I admit I'm slightly overreacting, because I don't know for sure yet that it won't still be possible to make 80% composite, and to be honest, it probably will. What *will* be impossible will be making medium-good armor with say 60% resists and lower HAM costs, and keeping the prices reasonable - because when that killer resource comes along with 900 OQ, SR, UT and MA (yeah right!) the miners are going to gouge so deep, it'll be nigh on impossible to turn it into profit...
OrobasWats wrote:
This isn't a positive nerf, and I'm going to use a non-armor example to show it, but I'm reasonably sure it applies to armor too:
The Rebulic Blaster. Currently, one of the resources required is Plumbum Iron. Plumbum Iron has never (and will never) spawned with conductivity over 100.
What this means currently, is that it takes about 4 points to max out damage on a republic blaster, leaving 6 points to go into HAM costs and Accuracy.
When the change goes in, it will take all 10 points (you might get lucky with an amazing, and only need 9 I suppose) to max out damage, because the conductivity is reducing the amount you're getting from sucessful experimentation. This means that the gun is less accurate and/or more costly than before. No amount of careful resource hoarding is going to change this, plumbum iron cannot have conductivity greater than 100.
What this now means is that weaponsmiths are going to hoard rebulic blasters (among other things), but since they stopped crates of 'pre-nerf' FWG5s from working in the last patch, they're going to hoard them out of crates, which is going to kill the server.
I'm sure that armor has the same issues with capped resource attributes - bone deffinitely has malleability caps on some types, as do some of the chemical types I think. Things like axidite iron and beyrillus copper will probably have low SR or MA caps, which before didn't matter, you just had to accept slightly higher HAM or what have you, now it means that items are going to be affected across the board.
Most of all it's going to be a nightmare trying to get large amounts of the "good stuff" when it finally spawns, leading to more database issues as everyone starts hoarding as much as they possibly can.
The biggest and most obvious impact is going to be the casual players. With the huge increase in resource quality importance, it's never going to be worth playing even a "casual-ish" crafter, because there just won't be any competition.
I also echo a comment I made in another post: Imagine trying to explain to KilLa Do0d why you can't make 80% composite anymore...
Now I admit I'm slightly overreacting, because I don't know for sure yet that it won't still be possible to make 80% composite, and to be honest, it probably will. What *will* be impossible will be making medium-good armor with say 60% resists and lower HAM costs, and keeping the prices reasonable - because when that killer resource comes along with 900 OQ, SR, UT and MA (yeah right!) the miners are going to gouge so deep, it'll be nigh on impossible to turn it into profit...
Ahh ... did you read the intial post? their is a note about *exactly* this situation ... well, as it applies to the republic blaster, the damage numbers were scaled up to compensate.
We will have to *wait* as see if they did indeed scale the numbers to some degree. From a Weaponsmith perspective (and why I ended up here in armoursmith forum is beyound me) but there are a lot of weapons that are unused because the damage was *not* scaled correctly.
I am going to give the Dev's the benefit of that doubt and wait and *see* if this truly puts weapons (and armour) on a sensible scale.
In the end I hope to see that all my weapons will actually be used and bought cause they are all of value ... when was the last time some of you armoursmiths sold some chitin? or padded? I hope the changes they are making will see more variety in armour so it's not all about folks *always* wearing composite :-)
Yes I read it, and sure the numbers were scaled up. This is fine. That still doesn't address the fact that these changes will stop this scaling meaning anything, because it won't be possible to actually experiment in more than 1 attribute.
The OP was talking about the weapon statistics being scaled to fit in with the old system when they built it.Not that they've rescaled everything to fit. If they were willing to go through and change every schematic to that kind of degree, then I don't think we'd have a problem...
What he means when he talks about scaling is that they decided that they wanted a gun with x - y min - max damage, but wanted that possible with resource a. They then did the maths and came out with multiplier p for each% of experimentation. That's not going to change. What is going to change is how much experimentation you get per successful point. You'll still be able to max out a republic blaster's damage, but it's going to take 10 points instead of 4 or what ever.
Surely you can see the problem this will create. Now, if this brings things in line with how they were always supposed to be - i.e. high damage/protection at the cost of HAM etc, then fine, but we really need to know if this is the case.
What also needs to happen is for experimentation on accuracy, and HAM on weapons and armorto have more of an effect, otherwise no-one will ever waste a point in those areas when they can tweak out a few extra % protection.
Message Edited by OrobasWats on 02-26-2004 04:46 PM
We all know what we want it do to, and what we don't want it to do. Put down the torches and pitchforks for now, until we see some hard numbers.
And if this is the same cr** they pulled last time, I'll be right there beside you. But for now, I'm chilling out.