Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Armor Repair question-truth or fiction
I have various armor components that are in some need of repair and I just don't know what to think.
1) Does an Armorsmith have bonus attributes inherit with their profession in repairing armor post CU?
2) So if #1 is no, would a 99+% plus repair tool work better when you stand next to a Armor Crafting Station or it does not matter?
3) Is there a food/drink buff that make repairing results more successful?
Like others, I hate to see investments in AA's go down the drain even with the slightest of chances of not doing something correctly.
Thanks,
Canaryville
canary wrote:
I have various armor components that are in some need of repair and I just don't know what to think.
1) Does an Armorsmith have bonus attributes inherit with their profession in repairing armor post CU?
Nope
2) So if #1 is no, would a 99+% plus repair tool work better when you stand next to a Armor Crafting Station or it does not matter?
Crafting station won't help
3) Is there a food/drink buff that make repairing results more successful?
Unsure, but I don't think so. There is a force repair that some crafter get...you might want to look for one of them, but the results on if that helps or not is iffy.
Like others, I hate to see investments in AA's go down the drain even with the slightest of chances of not doing something correctly.
Thanks,
Canaryville
p.s. As with anything in this game that seems to be more related with luck than skill, I always feel that sacrificing a wookiee will appease the repair gods.
LizzyD, there you go again with that sacrificing wookiees thing! Grrr ... as a Defender of Monkeys, I have no choice but to take action....
um...
Isn't that what they are for? I guess I could try ewoks.
I would gladly do gungans, but I don't think the gods would want them!
Thanks for the input. I'll guess I take out the hundred sided dice and hope for the best.
So the only other question that I just thought of is "Inspiration Buff". I guess it never hurts.
Canaryville
Here's the thing ... I've not seen any real test with significant trials that compares the repair capacities of an armorsmith with the repair capacities of a non-armorsmith. As useful as QuarEstee's testing is on the relative efficacy of additional modifiers, it doesn't really answer the question at hand, which is if armorsmiths are better at repairing armor than non-armorsmiths. Because we don't have any serious empirical evidence, and because arranging a good statistical test would be near impossible, we really have to rely on anecdotal evidence, in-game clues, and developer statements.
Anecdotal evidence is conflicting, but tends to support that armorsmiths generally have slightly better results at repairing armor over the long run. Most specifically, the rate of failed repairs is seemingly lower for master armorsmiths.
Our in-game clues are basically the existence of the FS Repair skill (useless as it may be for a master crafter) and the existence of SEAs with various repair mods. While these are certainly not conclusive, they do lend credence to the argument that it is intended that crafters have a better chance at a successful repair than non-crafters.
Finally, we have very few developer statements about repair, but this post by Thunderheart indicates that weaponsmiths are intended to have better chances of repairing weapons. It would logically follow that armorsmiths have a similar bonus for repairing armor.
Of course, the existence of a bonus says nothing about the quantitative effects of that bonus, and whether or not it is worth the hassle of a non-crafter seeking out a crafter to perform repairs. When people ask me this question, I usually tell them that in my experience, I have a better chance at a successful repair. I always repair with a 99+ rated tool, standing next to my 44+ crafting station, wearing my +24 repair suit. My results are almost always satisfactory, with the vast majority of repairs being "good" repairs, and the least common results being "poor" repairs or total failures.
Message Edited by Brutus_Krylop on 09-21-2005 01:47 PM
what about a test setup like this? Make a run of 200 cheap pieces of armor. Die and clone with them so you get 5% condition loss equal on all 200 pieces. Repair 100 andwith you Master AS and give the other 100 pieces forrepairto a non AS without any boni around.
Brutus_Krylop wrote:
Here's the thing ... I've not seen any real test with significant trials that compares the repair capacities of an armorsmith with the repair capacities of a non-armorsmith. As useful as QuarEstee's testing is on the relative efficacy of additional modifiers, it doesn't really answer the question at hand, which is if armorsmiths are better at repairing armor than non-armorsmiths. Because we don't have any serious empirical evidence, and because arranging a good statistical test would be near impossible, we really have to rely on anecdotal evidence, in-game clues, and developer statements.
Anecdotal evidence is conflicting, but tends to support that armorsmiths generally have slightly better results at repairing armor over the long run. Most specifically, the rate of failed repairs is seemingly lower for master armorsmiths.
Our in-game clues are basically the existence of the FS Repair skill (useless as it may be for a master crafter) and the existence of SEAs with various repair mods. While these are certainly not conclusive, they do lend credence to the argument that it is intended that crafters have a better chance at a successful repair than non-crafters.
Finally, we have very few developer statements about repair, but this post by Thunderheart indicates that weaponsmiths are intended to have better chances of repairing weapons. It would logically follow that armorsmiths have a similar bonus for repairing armor.
Of course, the existence of a bonus says nothing about the quantitative effects of that bonus, and whether or not it is worth the hassle of a non-crafter seeking out a crafter to perform repairs. When people ask me this question, I usually tell them that in my experience, I have a better chance at a successful repair. I always repair with a 99+ rated tool, standing next to my 44+ crafting station, wearing my +24 repair suit. My results are almost always satisfactory, with the vast majority of repairs being "good" repairs, and the least common results being "poor" repairs or total failures.
Message Edited by Brutus_Krylop on 09-21-2005 01:47 PM
Message Edited by Arem on 09-21-2005 10:25 PM
Arem wrote:
what about a test setup like this? Make a run of 200 cheap pieces of armor. Die and clone with them so you get 5% condition loss equal on all 200 pieces. Repair 100 andwith you Master AS and give the other 100 pieces forrepairto a non AS without any boni around.
A few comments:
- If, as we suspect, armor repair is some sort of d100 check, we'd need something akin to 500 tests per population (armorsmiths and non-armorsmiths) for the test to be statistically worthwhile.
- Repairing at 5% loss is not simulating normal conditions for repair. You'd need to get 50% decay for that (which is pretty doable, I suppose). Furthermore, as we don't know how or if original quality affects subsequent repairs, we would need to make sure that all pieces are high-quality (let's say 6000-Battle) so as to simulate normal repairs.
- Any way you slice it, this would be a huge undertaking for whoever does this.
I've been floored (in a good way) on all the feedback everyone has provided. I guess I thought my question on repairingwould of been pretty straight forward. Now it appears that there are more questions.
1)Fact - You have a repair tool for your ship related items and pretty much know how much decay you will get and know that your "repair" tool will repair you ship with "NO" critical failures. This applies to any pilot, they don't need to have any sort of SW skills.
2) Why then would there ever be chance for a "CRITICAL FAILURE" onArmor/Clothing/Weapon related items with a +99% repair tool?
3) Since cloning is about 5% decay, why can't there be a limit on degrading when a Armor/Clothing/Weapon itemis trying to be repaired?
As I don't follow this forum, has there been discussions by the correspondent about this issue? Many people spend plenty on credits on AA's & CA's and even with the slightest chance of "Critical Failure", that puts fear into many of us.
Just some thoughts from a humble crafter.
Canaryville
canary wrote:
1)Fact - You have a repair tool for your ship related items and pretty much know how much decay you will get and know that your "repair" tool will repair you ship with "NO" critical failures. This applies to any pilot, they don't need to have any sort of SW skills.
JTL and space will always be treated differently from the ground game. It was designed and operates almost as a stand-alone game inside the larger game. As most repairs are done by NPC spacestations, there is little reason to make player-done repairs riskier unless there were the chance of a flawless repair. But, since we can get a flawless repair in Deep Space anyway ... well, you get the picture.
2) Why then would there ever be chance for a "CRITICAL FAILURE" onArmor/Clothing/Weapon related items with a +99% repair tool?
In my experience, the rating of the repair tool means zilch ... but to answer your question, I'd assume that repairing consumables like weapons and armor is intended to be something of a gamble.
3) Since cloning is about 5% decay, why can't there be a limit on degrading when a Armor/Clothing/Weapon itemis trying to be repaired?
Risk / reward / player economy.
As I don't follow this forum, has there been discussions by the correspondent about this issue?
Nothing serious ... armor repair is pretty low on our list of concerns, as it really doesn't affect our gameplay much.
Many people spend plenty on credits on AA's & CA's and even with the slightest chance of "Critical Failure", that puts fear into many of us.
To be glib, that's what ADKs are for.
I'd imagine that the decay is also intended as a way to keep those SEAs from being everywhere.
Just some thoughts from a humble crafter.
Canaryville
Canary:
There IS a "limit" on decay when you repair something. Each different result reduces the full condition of the armor by a fixed amount (5%, 20%, 34% or 100%). Decay from getting corpsed while uninsured only affects the current condition of the armor, not it's full condition. But your idea is interesting. I've seen questions about whether the armor's current condition matters for repair results. My sense is no, but putting the test armor in someone's inventory (not wearing it, so it only takes item decay damage) and corpsing that person 10 times would produce a uniform drop of 50% ... one possible variable controlled.
As for the repair tool quality: IF it actually comes into play, then there is one (perhaps two) other issue(s)that may come into play -- the rumored armorsmith repair bonus or the default chance of failure. I've seen it said that everyone has a 5% chance of failure ... something that smacks of D&D critical misses to me. Anyway, IF non-AS have a 95% chance of avoiding an auto-fail and AS have, say, a 99% chance to do the same, and IF tool quality counts, then here's the deal. (1) One factor may trump the other. If the auto-fail rate wins out, then there is no point of a non-AS using a tool better than 95%, and no point of an AS using one better than 99%. (2) The affects multiply. For a non-AS, 95% tool with 95% auto-fail means overall chance of failure something like 90% ... 99% tool with 95% auto-fail means 94%.
But ALL of that is pure speculation.
Brutus:
Sample size is going to depend more on the number of variables than the scale of any one variable. The more variables you can control via experimental conditions, the fewer samples you'll need to tease out statistical significance. (As a psychological researcher, I know how to tease out meaning from the smallest sample sizes
) You can always throw the variables into the mix instead of using design controls, but controlling them statistically will definitely drive up the number of samples needed.Of course, the problem here is that there are SO many superstitions about repairing armor it would be difficult to figure out where to start!
So, if there is anyone out there with the resources to burn and the time to waste, here's a design to try out:
Primary issues to examine:
1) Outcome to measure is the success rate (categorical variable with 4 possible values)
2) Primary independent variable is armorsmith vs. non-armorsmith doing the repair.
Here are other variables which you can control through design (remove them) or through statistical control (include them, and increase your number of tests):
3) Tool quality. Remove it by using the same quality of tool. Include it by using at least two different quality tools ... and increase your number of tests.
4) Crafting stations. Remove it by doing no tests near a station (preferred) or by doing all tests by the same station (controlled, but cannot rule out stations as a source of success). Include it by doing repairs in front of the same station and away from any station ... and increase your number of tests.
5) SEAs. Remove it by having your repairers work in their skivvies. Same issue as above will come up if you have them use the same outfit with SEAs. Include it by repairing in skivvies and repairing in the same repair suit ... and increase your number of tests.
6) Amount of damage. Remove it by using uniformly damaged items. Include it by using two or more sets of uniformly damaged items (say, armor reduced by 50% and by 90% ... oooh boy! someone is going to have a negative pvp rating after this!) ... and increase your number of tests.
To me, that seems to cover the most likely possible sources of variance that need controlling. As for FS Repair, that's more of a within-subjects issue. Do the armorsmith tests with an AS who has no FS Repair skills. Repeat the tests after that AS gains all four FS Repair boxes or, if you're really ana-, er, dilligent, after each box. Don't bother asking a non-AS to do this, since you only need to test the AS -- using one person for this will allow you to control all other factors.
Besides, non-crafters should not be exposed to the pain of grinding an FS Crafting column ... compared to that, even permadeath is a holiday. Given all the whining on my galaxy's forum from the pvpers, it would just be intolerable if we put them through it.
I think I'll refrain from putting up a list of variables that aren't really worth testing....
I also have to admit that my own numbers probably do not test FS Repair fairly. In the clicky above, I talk about what it would take to do it. Things tend to behave in one of two manners wrt crafting -- the devs group effects in steps of 10 (like experimentation points) or on a continuous basis (like assembly, or so it seems). If FS Repair does work (and SEAs don't), then I really haven't differentiated enough on FS Repair to detect it.
All the same, peeps in this game are as superstitious as anyone, maybe more. I let my friends bring their armor to me and I always put on my +33 repair suit, stand in front of my somewhat uber station, and always use a 99% tool. I also ask them to hold their breath for each repair. Even if none of these things matter one bit, it still allows them to face that occasional critical failure stoically.
Even if it was +15 defense vs knockdown, +25 general ranged accuracy, +17 rifle speed and +21 battle fatigue healing.