Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Armour and Crafting Summary
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RelicOMO
Tue May 17, 2005 9:09 pm
#1
This is mostly for Caile - it's sort of a summary of armouring, and crafting as a whole, as I see it in SWG 2. Perhaps out of this he can maybe get a little bit of love for crafting, which is astonishingly pathetic in this new game.
First of all, armour-specific bugs and issues.
- SWG 1 Nightsister layers are still +0. This is because NS layers do not exist in SWG 2 - they have been replaced by Nightsister Fragments, which are just like Shards, except for Battle armour. Please try to get our current layers changed into Fragments - that really shouldn't be too hard.
- SWG 1 Peko Feathers still do nothing. All up, it would be nice if a Feathered Appearance Enhancement actually changed appearance, but I realise this is a bigger coding change than it seems.
- Crated armour from before CU goes to 50% stats and cannot be refitted when you uncrate it. Personally, I don't think this is a big issue, but that's just me personally. I wouldn't mind tossing all the pre-CU armour - it's so redundant now that it's so easy to make better stuff even without layers.
- Many people are still having trouble with factory times and resource requirements. Again, I personally don't think this is as much of an issue - armoursmiths just need to stop thinking of layers as mandatory, and instead think of layers as hugely expensive optional extras, much like making NS-enhanced armour was in the old game. It is not hard to do large runs of unlayered armour - the resource requirements for that are not that obscene, especially given how simple it is to get hundreds of k of hide now. That said, perhaps a slight reduction in factory times at least might make things easier for the more casual player, which is what SWG 2 is designed to encourage.
Some further notes on armour in general:
- The differences in reduction between armours is very little. There is no real measurable difference in protection between a suit that has 6k protection and one that has 8k. There is a difference between a 6k suit and a 2k suit, but towards the high end there is no real difference, either in PvE or PvP. This means that layering is not only a huge expense, but also irrelevant - there is, in fact, no real reason to layer except to sell to people who desire high numbers for a large premium. In fact, that is exactly what I am doing with my business - I sell the higher numbers for a hugely inflated markup not because it is more effective, but because it makes people feel better.
- The level modifiers for damage make armour largely irrelevant. Ultimately, if something is going to kill you, armour isn't going to stop it. Defeating high level mobs is done by either a) grouping, b) avoiding a lot of damage through high defences, or c) never being hit. Wearing armour does not really help in any of these instances - all it does is mean that a few hits on you are a bit more forgiving.
- Mitigations based on skill mean that nobody really wants armour until they are a Master of a requisite profession. This means that crafting grind armour is not really necessary - few people will use it. This further means that ultimately, what we want to make is high end armour. And since high end armour doesn't really have any difference in protection between stats, we are simply competing to have higher numbers to make people feel better.
And some final notes about the crafting of armour:
The caps on armour, even layered armour, are easy to reach. Just about every armoursmith can reach the cap for unlayered armour, and many can cap layered armour too. This basically means that most of us already produce identical product. Within a few months, just about everyone will produce the same, since the new, simpler resource calculation is much more forgiving of poorer resources (the difference between grind resources and high quality is very small now).
If indeed the idea is that we are to differentiate our product by the use of enhancers, then give us some actual variety in enhancers. As it is,all they do is add some health. This is not variety. Give us some enhancers that add skill mods, give us some enhancers that change appearance (I thought varactyl feathers and so on would be perfect, but apparently not). They don't have to be earth-shattering, but any form of differentiation would be very welcome.
Similarly, allowing us to differentiate our product in the crafting would be huge. SWG 2 was supposed to add variety - to make sure that not everyone used the single 'best' thing, that people were different. It has in fact done the opposite - now, there are even fewer 'best' things than there were before. The 'variety' that we see is just an illusion - in reality, everything is pretty much exactly the same, it just has a different skin. Armour is all basically the same in a different skin, weapons all do more or less the same with different skins. This is not true variety - people will not be fooled by this for long.
SWG 1 crafting allowed us to affect a large variety of things in our products - not just with armour, but with everything else as well. Yes, most of this variety was rendered irrelevant by buffs, but that did not mean the system was flawed - it just meant that buffs were flawed. Now we can affect so very little of our product that we
all produce basically the same thing, and this is dull. This is not a fun, dynamic change - it is boring. I made the analogy elsewhere to making a car. An engineer thinks about things like speed, efficiency, balance, aerodynamics, cornering, handling, etc. The SWG 2 version of making a car is to tell the engineer, okay, we don't want you to do any of that stuff, no efficiency, no design, no nothing. All we want you to do is turn this dial. The more you turn the dial, the faster the car goes. That's it - that's all you do. Oh, and the dial is capped at the speed limit - even if you turn it more, that's as far as it will go.
Of course, it could be worse - at least people still want armour and it has a function, albeit limited. The Droid Engineer version of crafting a car is to be told, okay, turn this dial to make the car, but it won't do anything. We'll give you wheels and an engine in an upgrade sometime.
To conclude, a few suggestions:
Give crafters more things to do. Most crafters do not need content in the usual sense of the word - new quests and so on are nice and always welcome, but the old crafting system was enough of a challenge in itself. It really was - there were so many things that could be done, and the challenge of design and business was quite deep. Crafters have stuck with it because they love crafting, but this new system removes all sense of differentiation and all sense of variety, meaning that they all produce essentially the same thing, just sometimes in a different skin.
Give crafters more ways in which they can affect their product. Perhaps include integral skill mods in armour - weapons have accuracy, I see no reason armour could not include mods like Terrain Negotiation, Melee/Ranged Defence, and so on. Simply an extra experimentation bar (or more) that affects these skill mods would make a massive difference in crafting. Similarly other crafts - different skill mods for weapons, droids that do anything at all, that sort of thing. We do not need a lot of support as crafters - the crafting system and game in itself can be very deep, but we need to be able to differentiate our products and to do more things with them.
Make equipment make more of a difference. I realise that the main design parameter that was given with the CU was 'players are too powerful and equipment is too good, that must be stopped'. But to make all equipment basically the same is not the answer. Players play MMOs to improve their character, to improve his stuff, to make him different from everyone else, and so on. Making it all the same, with only tiny differences here and there, negates the main purpose of playing most MMOs. Our equipment needs to do more, to affect the outcomes of battles more. There needs to be more differentiation, especially at the high end. The overwhelming power of players in SWG 1 had to do more with buffs than anything else - allowing us to customise our equipment and watch it have an actual effect will do more to
increase player satisfaction than you think.
Remove the level system. The level system is the single greatest killer of variety and differentiation. The level system means that everything in the game is just a skin for a number - their level. Players are just a skin for their level, mobs are a level with a skin, it's all the same. Level modifiers make the greatest difference in
combat, not equipment. It's all about level, and this is why the noncombat areas of the game have been more or less killed in SWG 2. (Empty cantinas, crafters leaving in droves, etc.) It's because nothing a crafter or an entertainer can do can improve your level, and so nothing a noncombat person can do has any real impact on the game. And their reward for this lack of meaning is to be limited in the game's most important stat - level. I realise that the level system makes it easy to 'balance' the whole game world and all mobs with a single tweak or two, but all it really does is make the game the same as every other game, and make everything in it the same. Again, this is not a fun, dynamic change, it is boring. There are many changes in SWG 2 that are good, but the level system is very poorly thought out. Please, for the sake of variety, let it go.
In summary:
- The level effects on combat negate equipment. Please try to remove or tone down the level modifiers, making equipment have more effect in combat.
- There is not enough variety in equipment, especially at the high end. The amount of extra damage resisted between 6k and 8k armour is insignificant. The same is true of weapons and other equipment - I have not seen any real benefit to using a buff enhancer over the regular buff skill, for instance. I realise that the system is supposed to give diminishing returns, and that's fine, but the rate of diminishing is currently too great.
- Adding other customisable areas to crafted goods would immediately add content for crafters, and probably keep them very happy. Skill mods on armour, for instance - an experimentable bar that increased melee or ranged defence, or terrain negotiation, or whatever, would add a great deal. Ideally, different armours could give different skills, perhaps in the form of an optional addon or layer. Give us ways to differentiate our characters, our equipment - for dedicated, longterm players, this differentiation is crucial to their enjoyment of a game, and a game that is different from all the others is what will keep them playing.
Mcgreag
Wed May 18, 2005 3:02 am
#2
I don't buy this armor not helping. How much would you pay for an item that gave you 90% health increase and was always active? Because in practice that's what a 5500 suit do. Yes it doesn't act like that for everything, dots ignore armor and there is armor brake but on the other hand it makes all heals 90% more effective too. I would never even consider fighting without armor.
Message Edited by Mcgreag on 05-18-2005 12:11 PM
JangoFett100
Wed May 18, 2005 4:32 am
#3
Good post. I especially agree on the aprt about all variety actually having been taken away from armor crafting. For some reason the Devs think they gave us more variety, but at this point I craft every singel piece of armor the exact same way.
If this system is to stay in place, what I would love to see is experimentation taken out of the final combine. Since I'm hand crafting everything, and there are now options on what to experiments on, why do I have to waste my time clinking there.
Ox-
Wed May 18, 2005 4:50 am
#4
What's really funny about the variety issue is that people still can't color their own armor, which means 95% of the armored people will be in black as soon as all the white pre-CU stuff breaks. So now instead of ubese in black and composite in many colors, we have ubese/padded/composite in black.
As for the utility of armor, I've been in quite a few situations lately where it definitely kept me alive where I would be dead otherwise. One was fighting sith in the village while healing... which generates a huge amount of agro. Another one was barely surviving an attack from 2 jedi who uncloaked and tried to wax me while I was standing next to a base turret.
I've given up on conversion issues. At this point it's too late. The devs have had their break from the stress of getting the expansion and CU out the door and are now re-assessing priorities etc. SOE always puts the next publish as the highest priority, so we're SOL. We're at the back of the queue now for class love.
I'm still in shock over how a group of developers could take the best crafting system in any MMOG and so blithely chuck it overboard.
As for the utility of armor, I've been in quite a few situations lately where it definitely kept me alive where I would be dead otherwise. One was fighting sith in the village while healing... which generates a huge amount of agro. Another one was barely surviving an attack from 2 jedi who uncloaked and tried to wax me while I was standing next to a base turret.
I've given up on conversion issues. At this point it's too late. The devs have had their break from the stress of getting the expansion and CU out the door and are now re-assessing priorities etc. SOE always puts the next publish as the highest priority, so we're SOL. We're at the back of the queue now for class love.
I'm still in shock over how a group of developers could take the best crafting system in any MMOG and so blithely chuck it overboard.
BigfootKC
Wed May 18, 2005 4:57 am
#5
Ox- wrote:
What's really funny about the variety issue is that people still can't color their own armor, which means 95% of the armored people will be in black as soon as all the white pre-CU stuff breaks. So now instead of ubese in black and composite in many colors, we have ubese/padded/composite in black.
As for the utility of armor, I've been in quite a few situations lately where it definitely kept me alive where I would be dead otherwise. One was fighting sith in the village while healing... which generates a huge amount of agro. Another one was barely surviving an attack from 2 jedi who uncloaked and tried to wax me while I was standing next to a base turret.
I've given up on conversion issues. At this point it's too late. The devs have had their break from the stress of getting the expansion and CU out the door and are now re-assessing priorities etc. SOE always puts the next publish as the highest priority, so we're SOL. We're at the back of the queue now for class love.
I'm still in shock over how a group of developers could take the best crafting system in any MMOG and so blithely chuck it overboard.
just make your factory runs in a more colorfull color, maybe youll see your suits running around if you do it particularly cool.
BigfootKC
Wed May 18, 2005 5:02 am
#6
i think the current encumbrance is better than the previous... it sucks to not be able to wear a complete suit if you want it for looks. Admitted you cant wear all amor now, but atleast you can equip it without asking a doctor to buff you.
RhysHacker
Wed May 18, 2005 5:05 am
#7
RelicOMO wrote:
SWG 1 Peko Feathers still do nothing. All up, it would be nice if a Feathered Appearance Enhancement actually changed appearance, but I realise this is a bigger coding change than it seems.
This statement is incorrect. I have paste some text I put in another post for clarity.
On feathered appearance...
It reads Appearance Enhancement and requires 1 Feathered Appearance Enhancement.
This means it is an enhancement to the appearance phase of the crafting process and not that it actually changes the appearance of the armour.
This is active atm. This is where you put the Feathered Armour Appearance Enhancement that can be made with Peko Peko feathers. This enhancement adds a health bonus from the feathers. The health bonus will only come from POST CU peko peko feathers as the pre cu ones did not convert properly. Also, you will not see the amount of health bonus on the post CU feathers until you..
1) If hand crafting, it will be diplayed once you add the enhancer and finish the armour
2) If factory producing several enhancers, the health bonus will show once the enhancer is in the output hopper
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