Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Zero sum layers and diminishing returns math
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Mcgreag
Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:00 am
#1
One thing that I thought of yesterday was what the combination of zero sum layer and diminishing returns would have on effective protection changes. So I decided to do the math.
Let's assume a battle armor with 5000 base.
Add 12 Kinetic layers for a total of +1000 kinetic and -1000 energy protection (perhaps -1012 would be more correct for energy but I will use -1000 for this calc).
6000 kinetic protection means 48% effective protection.
5000 base protection means 42.5% effective protection.
4000 energy protection means 36% effective protection.
(using the 0.011R-(5*10^-7)*R^2 formula)
If we are hit for 1000 kinetic damage we take 520 damage, 1000 energy equals 640 damage and if we use the unlayered armor and are hit for 1000 we take 575 damage.
If we compare these values we see that 640 is 11.3% more damage than base but 520 is only 9.6% less. So by adding layers we are in fact lowering the total effectiveness of the armor, it is not a zero sum game, it's a minus game to add layers.
Let's assume a battle armor with 5000 base.
Add 12 Kinetic layers for a total of +1000 kinetic and -1000 energy protection (perhaps -1012 would be more correct for energy but I will use -1000 for this calc).
6000 kinetic protection means 48% effective protection.
5000 base protection means 42.5% effective protection.
4000 energy protection means 36% effective protection.
(using the 0.011R-(5*10^-7)*R^2 formula)
If we are hit for 1000 kinetic damage we take 520 damage, 1000 energy equals 640 damage and if we use the unlayered armor and are hit for 1000 we take 575 damage.
If we compare these values we see that 640 is 11.3% more damage than base but 520 is only 9.6% less. So by adding layers we are in fact lowering the total effectiveness of the armor, it is not a zero sum game, it's a minus game to add layers.
Message Edited by Mcgreag on 04-17-2005 03:03 PM
Garnax
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:30 am
#2
This would also mean that in a mixed kinetic/energy battle battle armor is superior to recon or assault, if such a battle did exist. 
Or on the other hand you could use layers to offset the recon/assault difference if you wanted.
I think we'll see pretty soon which damage type is the most common for certain places, people will probably want to pick up skewed armor of both types.
Skyshark29
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:35 am
#3
This of course doesn't apply for TK's...........or Jedi.
I'm bringing this up, because having 2 professions that require no armor (they have basicly built in perfect armor) isn't going to help the economy. I guess it'll pan out one way or the other. I have a TK, i look forward to not having to buy anymore armor for him, but it's not looking good for AS's imo.
Message Edited by Skyshark29 on 04-17-2005 07:38 AM
Garnax
Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:29 am
#4
I wouldn't say perfect, but it looks like it is really decent armor. A Bria smith used some resource reward crates and got the server best resources and made battle armor which ended up 5800, and TKA get 6000. Regular armor will have to be sliced to be better, but who knows how loots will affect armor. And TKA:s can't use AA:s I guess.
Skyshark29 wrote:
I'm bringing this up, because having 2 professions that require no armor (they have basicly built in perfect armor) isn't going to help the economy. [...]
Big_Swifty
Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:32 am
#5
It could be that those numbers are off a bit, since you are using the 0.011R-(5*10^-7)*R^2 formula, which is only an approximation, and not the true formula.
This is not to say that you wont get a zero-sum with layers using the true formula, though. You will, as decreases in resists will always be larger in magnitude than increases.
It will always be a minus game adding layers to armor. This supposedly makes things more "interesting"... allows for "more choices".
This is not to say that you wont get a zero-sum with layers using the true formula, though. You will, as decreases in resists will always be larger in magnitude than increases.
It will always be a minus game adding layers to armor. This supposedly makes things more "interesting"... allows for "more choices".
Skyshark29
Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:09 am
#7
Yes, but to my understanding as w/wpn pwr-up's and layers, slicing is going to be give and take,ie if they manage to raise kinetic resists they reduce energy, and w/diminishing returns you lose some overall armor effectiveness. CA's will be used a bit more for the TK's in place of AA's. so your best 'overall' armor is going to be 6000 across the board which MTK's will have and Jedi (master defender)gets 7000 across the board (actually ends up being about 5% better then the MTK which is about 48%).
Garnax wrote:
I wouldn't say perfect, but it looks like it is really decent armor. A Bria smith used some resource reward crates and got the server best resources and made battle armor which ended up 5800, and TKA get 6000. Regular armor will have to be sliced to be better, but who knows how loots will affect armor. And TKA:s can't use AA:s I guess.
Skyshark29 wrote:
I'm bringing this up, because having 2 professions that require no armor (they have basicly built in perfect armor) isn't going to help the economy. [...]
Mcgreag
Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:39 am
#8
Big_Swifty wrote:
It could be that those numbers are off a bit, since you are using the 0.011R-(5*10^-7)*R^2 formula, which is only an approximation, and not the true formula.
This is not to say that you wont get a zero-sum with layers using the true formula, though. You will, as decreases in resists will always be larger in magnitude than increases.
It will always be a minus game adding layers to armor. This supposedly makes things more "interesting"... allows for "more choices".
Can you please tell me what the correct formula would be as I want to use this as an argument for 2 experiment lines on layers so it needs to be correct. I have seen the graph posted here but I doubt that formula is much better, too many decimals to be likely. I checked the above formula against the recorded values posted by Okram2k and the only deviation is down at 1250, at the interval I choose (which should be close to the interval for good crafted armor on live, probably a bit better base on live) is seems correct.
Yes there will always in one way be a minus game but this can in some ways be neutralised by the fact that a % based armor is also a curve going in the other direction, 90% is dubble as good as 80% not 10% better.
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