Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Some thoughts on making the current armor crafting system work post-CU, instead of a complete ch
Page 1 of 1
CaanaanRasok
Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:33 am
#1
Making sure that the Post-CU armor system works:
Assumptions:
-No one is bothered by or wants a less complicated armor crafting system.
-The Devs want a system that is balanced and has built in checks and balances to keep armor useful, but also have a “cost” to use.
-Currently, and more than likely after the CU, armor is, functionally, required for a character to do well in combat.
-The “new” point system is the same system of resistances that we currently use with the decimal moved over a couple of places. Ie. 5401 in the new system seems like it is 54.01% under the old. Why change it at all if such a small difference? I will refer to all values in the old manner—percentages.
-It seems like the devs are aiming for a maximum armor values of around 60-70%. I am guessing that this will be the max for both kinetic/energy and elemental resistances. For the purposes of this thread and discussion, I will use 70% as the theoretical max on resists—it is all the same for 60%, just a bit lower.
-Currently, in the armor crafting process, there are 3 types of experimentation: base resistances, special resistances, and condition/HAMs. Under the new armor system, there is no base resistance so it must be removed in the crafting process. However, if another area to experiment on is not added, this will significantly reduce the overall ability of an armorsmith to specialize or customize their armor.
-No one wants to have to hand craft all the armor they sell. If you do, you have never run a successful store. I can sell 10-30 suits a day, which can be from 40-270 pieces… There is no way I would do that every day—even if I could.
The Armor Crafting Process:
The current system of crafting can be used, with some minor changes, to accomplish the needs of the new CU armor system. It does not need a complete overhaul.
I hope that we all understand the basic mechanics of the armor crafting process… ie. the max experimental percentage of any line in the crafting process is the weighted average of the resources you put into it. Example: you take resources with OQ 500 and SR 500 and put them in an armor layer. The maximum percentage that this layer will be able to be will be 50% (in the pre-CU system this would relate to a 3.0% base or 8.0% special resist on the layer). If you were to take resources with OQ 900 and SR 900, the maximum percentage that this layer would be able to get to would be 90% (in the pre-CU system this would be a 4.60% base or 13.60% special layer). Whenever I talk about maximum experimental values, this is what I am referring to.
Layer crafting:
It is in the layer level of crafting that I think the majority of the changes need to be made. The devs have very specifically made it know that they want, and feel they need, to put a system into place where there are balances to make sure that there isn’t one type of armor that everyone uses and is the “1337 uberest.” I think the easiest and best way to accomplish this is to remove HAM experimentation from layer crafting… Before you toss me on a wooden pole and roast me over the flames of your hatred—hear me through.
If, instead of letting us experiment on HAM or penalty costs, they set these values at 1/3 (maybe ½?) of the max possible based on the resources used it would solve the problem. An example--if you used resources with a weighted average of 900, the HAM would be set, automatically, at 30% experimentation. Resources with a weighted average of 500 would result in the HAM being set at 16.67%. This would still make using good resources useful, but having a 0 HAM cost layer would be impossible. Therefore, in every case, the higher you drive the resistances, the higher the HAM costs/penalties.
There would also be 2 other lines in layer crafting that could be experimented on—resistances (whichever type the layer is) and condition. Because there is no “base resistances” value anymore, it will be conspicuously absent. In the current pre-CU system, condition is tied to HAM, by allowing it to be separately experimented it still leaves some room for an armorsmith to individualize his layers, at least somewhat. Regarding resistance experimentation, to keep a balance, it is important that every layer have both a benefit and a negative. I think this should be done by making the layer improve its namesake resistance and reduce its opposite. The ratio, in my opinion, should be 2:1—that is, if it is an 8% kinetic layer then it should have a 4% energy penalty also.
Quick recap—Layer crafting:
3 lines, 2 of which are experimentable (Is that a word? Lol.)
HAM or penalties – 1/3 of max value based on average of resource stats, NO experimentation
Resistances – normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation
Condition - normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation
Segment Crafting:
The segment is where I would keep the majority of the armorsmith’s ability to specialize and individualize his or her armor. Bear in mind, that I imagine the majority of the specialization coming from different layer use rather than just different ways to experiment. Since we will no longer be able to piggyback on our base values to get kinetic / energy values as high, it will probably require more or more interesting layer combinations to make well rounded armor or multiple-role (ex: current triple or quad 80 armors) armor.
There are 2 changes that should be made—reduce the maximum experimental value of HAM’s down to ½ of the normal value based on the resource stats, but keep it experimentable by the user. Example: if you used resources with a weighted average of 900, the HAM would start at a lower value like normal and would be able to be experimented up to a max of 45%. Also, the condition experimentation line from the layer level should be included here also. Other than that, there should be 2 lines of resistance experimentation—kinetic/energy and elemental. Both of these lines should increase all of their respective resistances. Example, the kinetic/energy line will increase both kinetic and energy resistances, not just one or the other.
Quick recap—Segment crafting:
4 lines, 4 of which are experimentable
HAM or penalties – max 1/2 of normal max value of avg resources stats, normal experimentation
Kin / Energy Resists – normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation
Elemental Resists - normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation
Condition - normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation
Skin / Apperance Crafting:
This should be handled, in my opinion, identically to the segment crafting process. Personally, I want to be able to affect the final stats of the armor at every part of the process. I can understand, and have a bad feeling, that the skin crafting portion will be handled more like a unexperimentable subcomponent—that the stats will be completely unimportant (or nonexistent) and will not affect the final stats of the armor. This would reduce a significant part of the armor crafting process to nothing more than plug and chug…. Boring and useless. Instead, to keep the overall stats of all armors similar, make the skin change the overall stats of the core (segment) by plus or minus 3-5% at most. This way, it still keeps it interesting, gives the great smiths an opportunity to shine at all levels, and opens up opportunities for new smiths to fill voids (no one can make everything), and no one particular armor will be drastically better or worse than another.
Personally, I would love if they would make it possible for the end user to combine the core and skin themselves. Allow either an armorsmith to do it (without a crafting station) and also create a tool, much like an armor repair tool, that allows anyone to do it. This would make the variability in different armors much more likely, since we, as armorsmiths, wouldn’t have to do it all by hand. We could sell the cores on one vendor, the skins on another, and the end user could pick and choose what they want.
Quick recap—Segment crafting:
4 lines, 4 of which are experimentable
HAM or penalties – max 1/2 of normal max value of avg resources stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Kin / Energy Resists – normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Elemental Resists - normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Condition - normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Basic un-layered resistance differences between basic, normal, and advanced armor types:
There needs to be a good reason why someone would make the non-advanced armor cores. Currently, the unused armor types are predominately because the resistances are capped due to the number of layers available to put into them. The system proposed currently, in my opinion, will not change this at all—everyone will want the “most uber stuff” which basically means only advanced cores will be useful—unless the lesser cores have proportionally higher resistances to their respective hinderances. For example, lets say that an unlayered advanced armor would have a 50% resistance (after triple or high-resist dual layering this could easily go to 70%) and a 35% Ham cost/penalty. If the normal core had 45% resistance (again could go to 70%, but probably couldn’t cap dual resistances) and had a 25% Ham cost/penalty--it would still have good enough stats to use, and the reduction in Ham would probably make it worth using. Following this logic, the basic core would be around 40% resistance (could get up to around 54-55% with one layer) and had a 15% Ham cost/penalty. This is taking into account that advanced cores can take at least 3 layers, normal-2 layers, basic-1 layer. Taking this up to 4 layers, in my opinion, wouldn’t change too much—just more possibility for multiple capped resists (which will also mean more lowered opposite resists) and higher ham costs.
Resources:
I think they have changed the basic requirements back to OQ and SR, so I won’t even mess with that… While I am not exactly happy about increased requirements per layer, I don’t think that is a huge problem. I am upset that the resources requirements for the basic damage types-energy and kinetic seem to be changing. People have waited a long time to be able to wear some decent stormtrooper, bounty hunter, etc armors. Why are we making them wait even longer, so that we can reacquire all the new resources for the basics—layers? I don’t mind new resources for the new armor skins, new resources for the new layers, etc… But how are you going to justify to the masses that – “I know you have been waiting for the CU for well over a year. I know you want to go try out the brand new system, but oops… Armorsmiths can’t craft any energy armor, so you are gonna get smoked against anything but creatures. I hope you enjoy fighting flits and gurgs enough to keep playing long enough for the armorsmiths to get a decent spawn of (insert annoying new resource here) and you realize that the new system isn’t quite as bad as it seems. Thanks and come again.” If they want this to be a complete game and a complete experience—they NEED armor. Don’t mess with the basic damage type layers… Play with the others all you want.
While I am dreaming, can you please try to reuse some of the resources that are no longer nearly as useful… Put colat in the teritiary layers, use crism in cold layers, whatever… Just don’t waste those.
Conclusions:
With the current system and the changes I outlined above, the armor crafting system can fulfill all the requirements of the CU and maintain all the good things about armorsmithing currently. The removal of HAM experimentation in layer crafting would make sure that as resistances go up so will the costs of using the armor. By keeping the HAM experimentation, but at a reduced maximum, in the segment and skin crafting it allows each armorsmith to tailor armor to their style and their customers playing style. The other changes would give the devs the ability to maintain a reasonable control over the stats of armor in the game without making all the armorsmiths afk-crafting-bots. It also still allows for an individual armorsmith to tailor armor to his or her desires—high resistances at the expense of ham, lower ham grind type armor, multi-role/resistance armor with higher hams, etc.
The most enjoyable part of this game, for me, has always been the crafting. I was an artisan when I started playing 18 months ago, and have never stopped. The crafting system is also, from what I have read, the most celebrated part of this game. The combat, evidenced by the upcoming combat revamp/upgrade, was obviously not up to par—I can say from personal experience that without the crafting and merchant systems, I would not still be playing. Specifically, all of the variability and depth of armorsmithing has kept me playing all this time. Pretty much every response in the armorsmithing forums seems to point in the same direction I am… We love the basic core of it, and we don’t mind some change, but please—don’t trash the most complicated, interesting, and fun profession in the whole game by dumbing it down.
Congrats if you read this far and didn't skim. Any ideas?
Assumptions:
-No one is bothered by or wants a less complicated armor crafting system.
-The Devs want a system that is balanced and has built in checks and balances to keep armor useful, but also have a “cost” to use.
-Currently, and more than likely after the CU, armor is, functionally, required for a character to do well in combat.
-The “new” point system is the same system of resistances that we currently use with the decimal moved over a couple of places. Ie. 5401 in the new system seems like it is 54.01% under the old. Why change it at all if such a small difference? I will refer to all values in the old manner—percentages.
-It seems like the devs are aiming for a maximum armor values of around 60-70%. I am guessing that this will be the max for both kinetic/energy and elemental resistances. For the purposes of this thread and discussion, I will use 70% as the theoretical max on resists—it is all the same for 60%, just a bit lower.
-Currently, in the armor crafting process, there are 3 types of experimentation: base resistances, special resistances, and condition/HAMs. Under the new armor system, there is no base resistance so it must be removed in the crafting process. However, if another area to experiment on is not added, this will significantly reduce the overall ability of an armorsmith to specialize or customize their armor.
-No one wants to have to hand craft all the armor they sell. If you do, you have never run a successful store. I can sell 10-30 suits a day, which can be from 40-270 pieces… There is no way I would do that every day—even if I could.
The Armor Crafting Process:
The current system of crafting can be used, with some minor changes, to accomplish the needs of the new CU armor system. It does not need a complete overhaul.
I hope that we all understand the basic mechanics of the armor crafting process… ie. the max experimental percentage of any line in the crafting process is the weighted average of the resources you put into it. Example: you take resources with OQ 500 and SR 500 and put them in an armor layer. The maximum percentage that this layer will be able to be will be 50% (in the pre-CU system this would relate to a 3.0% base or 8.0% special resist on the layer). If you were to take resources with OQ 900 and SR 900, the maximum percentage that this layer would be able to get to would be 90% (in the pre-CU system this would be a 4.60% base or 13.60% special layer). Whenever I talk about maximum experimental values, this is what I am referring to.
Layer crafting:
It is in the layer level of crafting that I think the majority of the changes need to be made. The devs have very specifically made it know that they want, and feel they need, to put a system into place where there are balances to make sure that there isn’t one type of armor that everyone uses and is the “1337 uberest.” I think the easiest and best way to accomplish this is to remove HAM experimentation from layer crafting… Before you toss me on a wooden pole and roast me over the flames of your hatred—hear me through.
If, instead of letting us experiment on HAM or penalty costs, they set these values at 1/3 (maybe ½?) of the max possible based on the resources used it would solve the problem. An example--if you used resources with a weighted average of 900, the HAM would be set, automatically, at 30% experimentation. Resources with a weighted average of 500 would result in the HAM being set at 16.67%. This would still make using good resources useful, but having a 0 HAM cost layer would be impossible. Therefore, in every case, the higher you drive the resistances, the higher the HAM costs/penalties.
There would also be 2 other lines in layer crafting that could be experimented on—resistances (whichever type the layer is) and condition. Because there is no “base resistances” value anymore, it will be conspicuously absent. In the current pre-CU system, condition is tied to HAM, by allowing it to be separately experimented it still leaves some room for an armorsmith to individualize his layers, at least somewhat. Regarding resistance experimentation, to keep a balance, it is important that every layer have both a benefit and a negative. I think this should be done by making the layer improve its namesake resistance and reduce its opposite. The ratio, in my opinion, should be 2:1—that is, if it is an 8% kinetic layer then it should have a 4% energy penalty also.
Quick recap—Layer crafting:
3 lines, 2 of which are experimentable (Is that a word? Lol.)
HAM or penalties – 1/3 of max value based on average of resource stats, NO experimentation
Resistances – normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation
Condition - normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation
Segment Crafting:
The segment is where I would keep the majority of the armorsmith’s ability to specialize and individualize his or her armor. Bear in mind, that I imagine the majority of the specialization coming from different layer use rather than just different ways to experiment. Since we will no longer be able to piggyback on our base values to get kinetic / energy values as high, it will probably require more or more interesting layer combinations to make well rounded armor or multiple-role (ex: current triple or quad 80 armors) armor.
There are 2 changes that should be made—reduce the maximum experimental value of HAM’s down to ½ of the normal value based on the resource stats, but keep it experimentable by the user. Example: if you used resources with a weighted average of 900, the HAM would start at a lower value like normal and would be able to be experimented up to a max of 45%. Also, the condition experimentation line from the layer level should be included here also. Other than that, there should be 2 lines of resistance experimentation—kinetic/energy and elemental. Both of these lines should increase all of their respective resistances. Example, the kinetic/energy line will increase both kinetic and energy resistances, not just one or the other.
Quick recap—Segment crafting:
4 lines, 4 of which are experimentable
HAM or penalties – max 1/2 of normal max value of avg resources stats, normal experimentation
Kin / Energy Resists – normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation
Elemental Resists - normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation
Condition - normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation
Skin / Apperance Crafting:
This should be handled, in my opinion, identically to the segment crafting process. Personally, I want to be able to affect the final stats of the armor at every part of the process. I can understand, and have a bad feeling, that the skin crafting portion will be handled more like a unexperimentable subcomponent—that the stats will be completely unimportant (or nonexistent) and will not affect the final stats of the armor. This would reduce a significant part of the armor crafting process to nothing more than plug and chug…. Boring and useless. Instead, to keep the overall stats of all armors similar, make the skin change the overall stats of the core (segment) by plus or minus 3-5% at most. This way, it still keeps it interesting, gives the great smiths an opportunity to shine at all levels, and opens up opportunities for new smiths to fill voids (no one can make everything), and no one particular armor will be drastically better or worse than another.
Personally, I would love if they would make it possible for the end user to combine the core and skin themselves. Allow either an armorsmith to do it (without a crafting station) and also create a tool, much like an armor repair tool, that allows anyone to do it. This would make the variability in different armors much more likely, since we, as armorsmiths, wouldn’t have to do it all by hand. We could sell the cores on one vendor, the skins on another, and the end user could pick and choose what they want.
Quick recap—Segment crafting:
4 lines, 4 of which are experimentable
HAM or penalties – max 1/2 of normal max value of avg resources stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Kin / Energy Resists – normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Elemental Resists - normal maxes based on avg of resource stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Condition - normal maxes based on average of resource stats, normal experimentation, max change plus or minus 3-5% of core stats.
Basic un-layered resistance differences between basic, normal, and advanced armor types:
There needs to be a good reason why someone would make the non-advanced armor cores. Currently, the unused armor types are predominately because the resistances are capped due to the number of layers available to put into them. The system proposed currently, in my opinion, will not change this at all—everyone will want the “most uber stuff” which basically means only advanced cores will be useful—unless the lesser cores have proportionally higher resistances to their respective hinderances. For example, lets say that an unlayered advanced armor would have a 50% resistance (after triple or high-resist dual layering this could easily go to 70%) and a 35% Ham cost/penalty. If the normal core had 45% resistance (again could go to 70%, but probably couldn’t cap dual resistances) and had a 25% Ham cost/penalty--it would still have good enough stats to use, and the reduction in Ham would probably make it worth using. Following this logic, the basic core would be around 40% resistance (could get up to around 54-55% with one layer) and had a 15% Ham cost/penalty. This is taking into account that advanced cores can take at least 3 layers, normal-2 layers, basic-1 layer. Taking this up to 4 layers, in my opinion, wouldn’t change too much—just more possibility for multiple capped resists (which will also mean more lowered opposite resists) and higher ham costs.
Resources:
I think they have changed the basic requirements back to OQ and SR, so I won’t even mess with that… While I am not exactly happy about increased requirements per layer, I don’t think that is a huge problem. I am upset that the resources requirements for the basic damage types-energy and kinetic seem to be changing. People have waited a long time to be able to wear some decent stormtrooper, bounty hunter, etc armors. Why are we making them wait even longer, so that we can reacquire all the new resources for the basics—layers? I don’t mind new resources for the new armor skins, new resources for the new layers, etc… But how are you going to justify to the masses that – “I know you have been waiting for the CU for well over a year. I know you want to go try out the brand new system, but oops… Armorsmiths can’t craft any energy armor, so you are gonna get smoked against anything but creatures. I hope you enjoy fighting flits and gurgs enough to keep playing long enough for the armorsmiths to get a decent spawn of (insert annoying new resource here) and you realize that the new system isn’t quite as bad as it seems. Thanks and come again.” If they want this to be a complete game and a complete experience—they NEED armor. Don’t mess with the basic damage type layers… Play with the others all you want.
While I am dreaming, can you please try to reuse some of the resources that are no longer nearly as useful… Put colat in the teritiary layers, use crism in cold layers, whatever… Just don’t waste those.
Conclusions:
With the current system and the changes I outlined above, the armor crafting system can fulfill all the requirements of the CU and maintain all the good things about armorsmithing currently. The removal of HAM experimentation in layer crafting would make sure that as resistances go up so will the costs of using the armor. By keeping the HAM experimentation, but at a reduced maximum, in the segment and skin crafting it allows each armorsmith to tailor armor to their style and their customers playing style. The other changes would give the devs the ability to maintain a reasonable control over the stats of armor in the game without making all the armorsmiths afk-crafting-bots. It also still allows for an individual armorsmith to tailor armor to his or her desires—high resistances at the expense of ham, lower ham grind type armor, multi-role/resistance armor with higher hams, etc.
The most enjoyable part of this game, for me, has always been the crafting. I was an artisan when I started playing 18 months ago, and have never stopped. The crafting system is also, from what I have read, the most celebrated part of this game. The combat, evidenced by the upcoming combat revamp/upgrade, was obviously not up to par—I can say from personal experience that without the crafting and merchant systems, I would not still be playing. Specifically, all of the variability and depth of armorsmithing has kept me playing all this time. Pretty much every response in the armorsmithing forums seems to point in the same direction I am… We love the basic core of it, and we don’t mind some change, but please—don’t trash the most complicated, interesting, and fun profession in the whole game by dumbing it down.
Congrats if you read this far and didn't skim. Any ideas?
Message Edited by CaanaanRasok on 04-09-2005 10:38 AM
Message Edited by CaanaanRasok on 04-14-2005 09:33 PM
Keeper32
Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:55 am
#2
I must say I agree with much of this. It makes it sound a little more interesting, without killing the professions good point entirely. One point seems mute to me though.
Instead, to keep the overall stats of all armors similar, make the skin change the overall stats of the core (segment) by plus or minus 3-5% at most.
As long as we are talking about such miniscule percentages, they might as well not be there I think.
Message Edited by Keeper32 on 04-09-2005 07:57 PM
CaanaanRasok
Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:41 pm
#3
I posted this several days ago, but with some of the new developments, I thought it might be worthwhile to put the ideas back out there.
Since there are so many balancing issues with the current system on the TC, and it doesn't seem that the devs have enought manpower to do another complete overhaul of the system--this would only require changes to the system currently in place. I am hoping this might be a more realistic goal / change than expecting them to redo all the work on the change thus far... Who knows.
With regards to the reply, I agree the changes are small, but it seems like the core of the CU AS changes are to make all armor types and looks have similar stats... If the changes on the skin level are too dramatic, we could easily end up with another, similar, comp-clone system we have now. If, for instance, your server had much better resource X than resource Y, then one type of armor's stats might be significantly better than another.
The other option, that I think is how TC is working now, is to make the skins only affect condition, and possibly HAM... This way they could still affect, but couldn't unbalance.
Again, I am just throwing some of the ideas around, hoping that some of them help fix the mess we are in currently.
Since there are so many balancing issues with the current system on the TC, and it doesn't seem that the devs have enought manpower to do another complete overhaul of the system--this would only require changes to the system currently in place. I am hoping this might be a more realistic goal / change than expecting them to redo all the work on the change thus far... Who knows.
With regards to the reply, I agree the changes are small, but it seems like the core of the CU AS changes are to make all armor types and looks have similar stats... If the changes on the skin level are too dramatic, we could easily end up with another, similar, comp-clone system we have now. If, for instance, your server had much better resource X than resource Y, then one type of armor's stats might be significantly better than another.
The other option, that I think is how TC is working now, is to make the skins only affect condition, and possibly HAM... This way they could still affect, but couldn't unbalance.
Again, I am just throwing some of the ideas around, hoping that some of them help fix the mess we are in currently.
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