Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Here's what is wrong with armor...
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Musashi255
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:01 pm
#1
i've been writing up a large post about the main faults of this game that decrease the fun and increase the stress, however this is taking a long time (as anyone would expect) so i figure since i am a master armorsmith, i could stand to throw out a littla part right here, so here you go. please note, i don't capitalize as often as i should and i know that 
Now, I'm sure everyone notices that compositeis pretty much all anyone wears. and regardless of how much truth there is to it, i've heard that armor effectiveness my be capped soon, and i think that before that descision is made, some things should be looked at.
another issue besides the effectiveness is the fact that it makes the game very dull to only wear and see one type of armor constantly, and what i have to say will hopefully solve that as well.
i want you to imagine a world where docs can't buff your secondaries to rediculous proportions, a world where a rodian with all of his secondaries maxedout at the expense of his/her HAM(which i am) would be very lucky to see a set of comp that he could wear in its entirety, and if he did manage to get it on, watch him try to beat a skillfull player who has 55/15/47 encumberancemabari (which i wear).
He would fail.
the problem with armor is not armor itself, it's the fact that players can wear it indescriminately, and the fact that players think they know how it works.
the effectiveness percentage is not what most players think it is, most players think that 100 damage hits 18% mabari and does 82 damage, of course a knowledgeable player knows this is not true. the light armor rating of the armor first reduces the damage by 50% (25% if the attack is armor peircing, these percentages are when compared to no armor at all or armor that is vulnerable) so 100 damage to 18% mabari is just 41 damage.
now, when you compare 18% mabari(41 damage) to 70% ubese (15 damage) it's far different than comparing 82 damage to 30 damage, which is the most popular beliefe on how the armor works.
the problem is that you have onepistoleer with god mode (doc buffs),no damage mitigation trying to kill a janta, when what you should have isa melee proffession tanking for him while he sits back in his light armor using somespecials (you are not supposed to be able to spam them, if you were why would theyeven addham costs, just a special handicap for people who don't usedoc buffs?)without the need for game-ruining buffs because his secondaries are reasonable. the person tanking would hardly need armor at all because he has melee damage mitigation, which makes a huge difference.
What ACTUALLY needs to change: Buffs obviously are screwing everything, but that's a whole different issue. on the developer side, armor special protecion needs to nulify armor peircing, that will make lesser armor types instantly usefull, a bone armor helm would provide great protection from a T21 for example, and krayte scales would beworth something, since 90% baseeffectiveness wouldnever compare to amerely decentspecial effectiveness. on the player side, players need to actually understand the way secondaries and armor actually work, and oncea player actually understands the rules of the game he is playing he would be able to solo graul maulers unbuffed and in that 18% mabari i was talking about, without having to use cheap tactics that obviously exploit that games many glaring, unnecessary faults. (i have done this many times with a master swordsman, and not only is it not hard, it's disgracefully easy with proper use of the skills given to you, which also have problems, if healthshot2 is the better than bodyshot 3 in every situation.
for those who took the time to read this, thank you and please don't flame me, because i'm right. (just joking, please don't get all uppity ) and i hope if nothing else you gained something from it.
) and i hope if nothing else you gained something from it.
Musashi255
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:26 pm
#2
Oh, and jaato? i think this is important. please feel free to take any part of my analasys and use it however you want, whether you quote me or not
Somejediguy
Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:45 am
#3
I agree. I also believe that the encumb hits are a bit much though (and that armor should be capped lower), but only because I think are should drop defnese bonuses. I feel that dodge and any ability tht allows you to avoid damage should take a hit dependent upon the encumb of the armor. You should be able to absorb damage (armor wearer) or dodge it (non-armor wearer) but not both at full effectiveness. This could effectively put light armor wearers on par with heavy armor wearers. The guy wigh higher defense bonuses (fencers for example) would be better off in mabari to take advantage of the lower dodge/defense hits. This would make lighter armor a more viable option (ignoring the vulnerability issues).
Just thought
vinterthoor
Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:07 pm
#4
You reduce doc buffs and that takes care of a lot of problems.
Musashi255
Tue Oct 19, 2004 3:34 pm
#5
well, i don't htink armor should effect those stats, because i mean, beter heavier armor should still be better than light armor, it's just that you should be wearing aromr more suited to your proffession instead of a ful suit.
for(unbuffed)example, a knowledgeable rifleman would wear a comp helm, maybe an ubese jacket/bracers, and who knows, maybe some bone or mabari legs and boots. that would be reasonably light, would protect the right parts to a reasonable degree, and let him look different than other players as well. he would have an advantage against a swordsman (which should naturally be his worst enemy, what withrifleman's lack of melee damage mitigation) who is wearing full comp because the swrodsman is attacking his heavily fortified head and would be more weaighed down in the secondary stats.
the rifleman has done what a skilled player does, eleminated his main threat and left himself with enough secondaries to use a special when the need arises (not spam it and kill yourself, like all the steroid addicts out there like to do when they have to fight unbuffed)
the rifleman would not be unbeatable, like it is with doc buffs around because he would have to leave his chest and legs open, which is great for a pikeman or fencer or whatever,but he should not be fighting alone if he is fighting more than one person, and if he is, then he obviously SHOULD be at a disadvantage, and a skillfull player could still pull through.
THAT is combat balance, i only hope the devs try these changes before they rebalance all of the combat proffessions, when TKA is the only one that might need just a tiny nerf (or to require more to ulock then just unarmed 4. why not call it brawler, call brawler warrior, and make a new proff called TKA which allows for the use of weapons, kind of like a melee counterpart to bounty hunter. move meditation to that proff).
Musashi255
Thu Oct 21, 2004 4:58 pm
#6
what the bump? doesn't anyone think this is important? are you all just afraid of losing your buffs? 
Unilyte
Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:34 am
#7
important? yes, waiting to see what they do with the combat rebalance, if and when they get to it.
Think they should have stuck alittle closer to the RPG, IMO. Sure it might have looked more like KOTOR or Baldur's Gate, but the combat system works great there and wouldn't have been that hard to work into an online game.
I'm not saying all the ideas are bad here, or should be changed just some of the stuff to keep more with Star Wars and RP enviroment would have been nice. Hey the RP doesn't cover all the stuff and yes crafting is something that is blowen over in it and plus the enterainment is also a nice touch. Just should have been a little more work and thought into it. Just not let's get something out there and work out the bugs later.
zolari
Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:27 pm
#8
Musashi255 wrote:
well, i don't htink armor should effect those stats, because i mean, beter heavier armor should still be better than light armor, it's just that you should be wearing aromr more suited to your proffession instead of a ful suit.
for(unbuffed)example, a knowledgeable rifleman would wear a comp helm, maybe an ubese jacket/bracers, and who knows, maybe some bone or mabari legs and boots. that would be reasonably light, would protect the right parts to a reasonable degree, and let him look different than other players as well. he would have an advantage against a swordsman (which should naturally be his worst enemy, what withrifleman's lack of melee damage mitigation) who is wearing full comp because the swrodsman is attacking his heavily fortified head and would be more weaighed down in the secondary stats.
the rifleman has done what a skilled player does, eleminated his main threat and left himself with enough secondaries to use a special when the need arises (not spam it and kill yourself, like all the steroid addicts out there like to do when they have to fight unbuffed)
the rifleman would not be unbeatable, like it is with doc buffs around because he would have to leave his chest and legs open, which is great for a pikeman or fencer or whatever,but he should not be fighting alone if he is fighting more than one person, and if he is, then he obviously SHOULD be at a disadvantage, and a skillfull player could still pull through.
THAT is combat balance, i only hope the devs try these changes before they rebalance all of the combat proffessions, when TKA is the only one that might need just a tiny nerf (or to require more to ulock then just unarmed 4. why not call it brawler, call brawler warrior, and make a new proff called TKA which allows for the use of weapons, kind of like a melee counterpart to bounty hunter. move meditation to that proff).
wow never heard such nonesense...a rifleman unbuffed in comp armor helmet use a special against a swordman? would be instant death.
Also your point that the swordsman in comp is hitting his head? auto attack wont hit his head it will hit his weak leg and chest and end the poor riflemans weak existance quite quickly. though now everything would have to change wsmiths would have to pay great attention to ham costs and lots more. why not release a whole new game?
Val_Hunter
Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:19 am
#9
There's a lot that needs to be done with the combat balance.
Armor needs to cap out much lower.
Doctor buffs need t be much weaker.
Weapons need to do slightly less damage (and speed mods need fixed)
If there is only one armor you can PvP in, then there is a problem. As your protection goes up, each percentage point added gets worth more. The difference between 70% and 80% armor is 33% less damage. The difference between 80% and 90% armor is 50% less damage. The numbers are jsut too high.
I think armor should max around 50 or 60%
Special moves shouldn't increase damage, just have added effects.
Buffs should max out around 200-500 added stats.
Beyond that some balance has to be done between the armor type to make other armors more viable.
I personally like the look of padded (except for the mushroom helmet). I can make a decent PvE suit, but not PvP. According to leveling Padded is just below composite, and I'd be a fool to wear it.
Armor needs to cap out much lower.
Doctor buffs need t be much weaker.
Weapons need to do slightly less damage (and speed mods need fixed)
If there is only one armor you can PvP in, then there is a problem. As your protection goes up, each percentage point added gets worth more. The difference between 70% and 80% armor is 33% less damage. The difference between 80% and 90% armor is 50% less damage. The numbers are jsut too high.
I think armor should max around 50 or 60%
Special moves shouldn't increase damage, just have added effects.
Buffs should max out around 200-500 added stats.
Beyond that some balance has to be done between the armor type to make other armors more viable.
I personally like the look of padded (except for the mushroom helmet). I can make a decent PvE suit, but not PvP. According to leveling Padded is just below composite, and I'd be a fool to wear it.
JeCy
Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:42 pm
#10
i totally agree,, doc buffs totally screw up the entire combat system.. standing there with a gun letting a rancor attack you while it hits you and it doesnt even phase you is soo wacked..
Id say take away all secondary buffs from docs and entertainers and let food be your only way to get up yuour secondarys. It would turn grouping to kill things like rancors for example.. and having a balanced group, medics, melee, ranged,, ect
As for that guy that says the why nto make a whole new game?? i dont think he really knows what hes talking about.
First, if a guy is right on top of you with a sword and is hacking away at you,, you would die.. the whole point of a rifle is to kill them before they get to you.. Why do you think old rifles had bayonettes attached to um? not cuase they shot you when your in melee range,, its to stab you.. thats why soldiers carry, rifles, pistols and knives.. in melee range you dont shot, you stab thats fact not fiction. anyone that knows how to fight, if you are in melee range you would never beable to hit a skilled mellee fighter with your gun.
What removing buffs from secondarys would do is change the way we make stuff and give us a reason to exp on durra/ham The trade off Do i max protect and make it soo i cant spam specials, or do i go lighter and i can use more specials but if i get hit i have more damage.. It would allow armorers to vary the way they make stuff and not this regurgitated factory crap,, everyone has the same gear set up bull that it is now. it would mean you would have to have skills, and use stratagys to pvp,, and not whos template is better, and the one with the highest DOT loot weapon wins
as for dodge in armor, again i totally agree the % should be directly related to the wieght of the armor you are wearing. swordsman vs rifleman. example.. well at range the melle guy running at the rifleman, the rifleman has free shots and could take him down before he even gets there, in his heavy armor he wouldnt beable to dodge shots and could have much damage before he even got to the target, if he did make it,, the rifleman shouldnt have a snowballs chance in hell vs a swordsmen in melle range and should be dead in a few hits. Its soo stupid that a rifleman stands there toe to toe with a swordsman trading blows,, to me thats about as stupid as it gets..
I have thought this and had these discustions with many people,, its nice to see someone out there thinking for once. you hit the nail right on the head with this post,, great job.. maybe SOE will read it and get some ideas : )
Je'Cy Dax
tadpoleStillwater
Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:25 am
#11
Many good points and ideas.
I don't agree with being forced to group. I enjoy socializing...sometimes, have had many great group hunts, etc. But when I am feeling antisocial and want to kill some critters, I would not like to be limited to gnorts and durni...
The actions that the Devs take to apease(spelling?) one group, will alienate another...so it has ever been.
When SOE nerfs armor, do they really know how to do anything with subtlety and style???, and make it so I cannot hunt anything worthwhile alone, I will hang up the account, and, I am sure, none will miss me.
Next we need to figure out how unbuffed folks with 50% resist armor will be able to fit enough people into the cave to kill a NS Elder, and how to decide how to divide up the 1 loot item between 20 people...but I digress.
zolari
Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:20 am
#12
i fully agree the system is wack...spamming specials sucks...and while it is unrealistic to shoot at melee range it would just push more people melee to negate that if you nerfed it...i think defense in armor needs to be addressed like tkm doing all that stuff in armor is foolish same with fencer....i think each armor should have a different special protection and one thing it does good....maybe say bone stay energy which it can do fairly well...chitin stay kinetic but low level and not much else...keep going up and then have composite maybe with broad protections still but along with padded allow them to be layered for one thing maybe near 50% tops and padded maybe 40% with base near 20 and 30% respective...that way how would you know in pvp if the person had on 50% stun helm or 50% kinetic helm...would make any proff more feasable
armor should be lowered resists and greatly raise ham costs for high end
JeCy
Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:20 am
#13
for the guy that says he cant hunt alone if they nerf armor.. that total BS.. i hunt alone all the time,, one way with a rifleman/CH i go unbuffed in chiten,, for months ive been doing this and im not a master of either,,,
Second you say your not a rifleman/CH well as my merchant/armorer/droid engineer/artisan,, i have zero combat and zero medic and i hunt alone,, and unbuffed.. i eat some food and use a combat droid.. i have killed reclusive gurk kings which are CR lvl 71 soo if you cant do it alone with a combat class your doing something wrong
Je'Cy Dax
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