Armorsmith Archive
Thread: Layer nerf....anyone else notice...or care?
I just tested this on a kinetic layer. Spent all my 10 points on durability and this is what I get:
Durability Health Action Mind
21% 15 15 15
28% 14 14 14
35% 13 13 13
42% 11 11 11
49% 10 10 10
56% 8 8 8
64% 7 7 7
71% 5 5 5
76% 4 4 4
78% 4 4 4
79% 4 4 4
All experimentation results were "great successes". Initially, every point gives a 7% increase in durability (or once even 8%!), but towards the end the increase starts decreasing. After having spent 10 points the maximum durability was not reached yet (still one box open).
So I confirm what Lira posted: it seems there is something weird going on with experiments in durability.
Emily
And to Neiscius: all great successes should allow 7% increase each point, the table shows a clear lessening of value as you reach the cap (which probably was 79% in this example). After 71% he only got 5%, 2% and 1% increases with points. In theory he should be able to reach for instance 77% in only 8 points with all great successes. Or only 7 points with amazing results.
The OQ+MA resources that I was using are >1800. I have the same resources I was using before. The relevent information is in the experimentation breakdown listed in the initial post.
Did you notice that the % of experimentation increase was only 1% on the final experiment? And it was a 7% increase for each of the first few experiments?
I further verified this last night. The conclusion....it's pointless to put more than a few points of experimentation into durability on the layer.
My guess is SOE is slowly implementing the changes they initially put in that created such fuss. Or...they didn't completely remove the crap.
This is not new, nor is it a nerf. I made 1/1/1 elec layers just today, experimented to 90%. They could have been 0/0/0, but I stopped there to get above 3% base as well.
In my experience, certain combinations of materials experiment differently to other combinations in the HAM bar. It is only ever the HAM bar, not any other bar - the HAM bar behaves differently, especially on layers, but also in other combines. Simply put, there are certain percentages, certain combinations of OQ/Mal, that do not experiment well. If I combine a certain wooly and a certain type of duralloy and cubirian in my advanced padded segments, for instance, I experience exactly the same thing that you see here. Change any one of those components, and I have normal experimentation, HAM bar or otherwise. With these 'bad'combinations, however, I get, exactly as you saw, smaller and smaller great successes. If I get to the point where I only need 1% to get to the cap, I will always, always, moderate or crit fail with that next point. Alter the materials slightly, however, and I experiment normally right up to the cap.
This happens generally, I find, with combinations that have HAM bars with caps of 80% or lower. If you use materials that allow HAM experimentation above 80%, this hardly ever occurs.
As to why this occurs, anyone's guess is as good as mine. I have a suspicion, however, that Malleability is somehow asymptotic, and weights results rather differently than we might expect from the listed weightings. I do recall a rumour when I first started that high Mal gave you better chances of great and amazing successes - what seems to be the case is that beyond a certain level on the experimentation bar, it starts calculating your Mal cap from the Mal of a resource other than your best one, and/or weighting the Mal result from the most used resource (ie. the one represented the most in your schem, eg 25 units of metal) rather more than you might expect.
To simplify what I'm talking about, here is an example. On Valcyn we are fortunate enough to have the ideal layer metal, polysteel copper with 998 Mal/974 OQ/796 SR. This is simply perfect, and gets used in just about all my layers. When I use this coupled with high Mal polymer, I experiment normally all the way to 1/1/1 or 0/0/0. If I use a slightly lower Mal polymer (700 or so), I can still push it all the way to 1/1/1, though I am normally using the Effect bar rather than HAM there. If I use an alternative metal, an aluminium with 998 Mal/840 OQ, I still am able to get to 1/1/1 quite comfortably. However, when I make items such as stun layers, or try to use the HAM bar with ferrous metal layers (a combo where I would normally go for base or special), I have the same results on HAM as you do here. I suspect this is because of the comparatively low Mal, because I can use an iron with 576 Mal and 900+ OQ, but I still have these funky results.
It might help to start considering the weighting for HAM as something closer to 80% Mal/20% OQ, rather than 50/50. Although the bar does not represent an 80/20 split, in experimental practice it starts to resemble that.
This is still a problem since last time I posted and when trying I still have the same results. I have recently acquired some better resources in the OQ+Mall department and using those higher stats I don't have a problem with it. So my guess is that this is still bugged for using resources below a certain magic number and I would like for that to be fixed because it doesn't seem to be working the way it should. If it is supposed to be capped because of the resources, there should be no way that using these points would result in a 1 or 2% increase. As a 12 point Armorsmith I have almost always used my extra points to experiment on lowering Encumbrance much like Slyder. I have always mainly been geared towards making lighter PVE composite and ubese and this just made any of my resources below that magic number junk even with decent stats. Since my thread disappeared down the long line of pages without any sort of explanation I am going to try again and support yours withan attempt for some answers.
For anyone who wants more information here is the thread that I started back a while ago.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=armorsmith&message.id=45495
Let's hope we get some answers or and explanation this time Slyder.
That's actually the thread I was refering to. Just copied the data Emily posted to start this one.
I'm going to play around a little with it to verify what the previous poster found. I have several variations of resources to make most of the layers.
What started this was my first attempts at kinetic layered comp. Very easy to get high base and kinetic. (Though why some want to limit the kinetic to 80% is beyond me.)I want to make light kinetic layered comp. My goal is 80% kinetic...sub 550/550/550 HAM. This should work well for a slice on either stat. Considering my unlayered stuff is 54% base, it should be easy to hit 80kin/60base.
Srednii wrote:I had always though the hams bar acted stupid cause it's hams and durability, ie: HAMs: oq/mall, durability oq/UT.
if that is true then i already have the answer (was discussed some while ago on the doctor boards regarding the experimentation of enhance packs - duration and power are tied to a single experimenation line but rely on different resource attributes):
when a single experimentation line consists of two different effects that rely upon different resource attributes, then the maximum experimentation that can be reached is equal to the average of the two different resource attribute sets.
that means if the materials would allow a 70% experimentation because of their OQ/UT (properly acknowledging resources with missing stats, etc.) and 90% experimentation because of OQ/MA, then you will only get a maximum experimental value of 80%.
after reaching the lower value (ie 70%) the corresponding effect will not rise any further and the percentage increase for each experimentation point is halved.
BigAke wrote:
when a single experimentation line consists of two different effects that rely upon different resource attributes, then the maximum experimentation that can be reached is equal to the average of the two different resource attribute sets.
that means if the materials would allow a 70% experimentation because of their OQ/UT (properly acknowledging resources with missing stats, etc.) and 90% experimentation because of OQ/MA, then you will only get a maximum experimental value of 80%.
after reaching the lower value (ie 70%) the corresponding effect will not rise any further and the percentage increase for each experimentation point is halved.
Interesting. The UT stat may have just taken a giant leap in importance.
As soon as the good wooley spawn is over, I'm gonna run some tests. Should be any day now.
1st I have been using the exact same resources for at least 2 months, many of them for 4-5months. So it cannot be the result of changing resource values.
Last Fri I did 3 batches of my normal Kin layers (1/1/1 3%base 6% kin) for a run of high Kin comp. The segments that came out of those layers had the same numbers as in past (13/13/13 26%Base 19%kin).
Yet on my final craft I noticed I had to spend on average 2 extra points in base to reach my 62%mark on Chest/legs/Helm. And lost 1 point of HAM exp in minor pieces (arms/boots etc) unless I got 2 amazings in a row
Now all the resources are the same in the final craft that I have used countless times before, but the resulting final has me puzzeled. Instead of my segments base coming out 26.333 or better they appear to have come out more along the lines of 26.2
Without back to back amazings (which I havnt needed before) My Chest plate Health Ham has risen from 208 to 217.
I did 2 small runs of "new" layers and had similar resutls.
Big deal you all say
And youd be right, as most people could care less about 9 more Ham in a chest piece.I just thought it was strange and reflected the heart of this post.