Armorsmith Archive
Thread: The real problem
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Please please don't ignore the mind buff issue.
Kill buffbots, but please make the following changes.
1. Entertainer buffs last 3 hours, so theymatch Doc buffs better.
2. Both Entertainer AND Doc buffs stack on themselves. When one wears out, the other kicks in. Make your trip back to town worthwhile.
Those 2 changes will make the REASONS that people love buffs bots go away.
It is easy to hate buff bots and their users, they hurt your plans and agenda. Yet remember that Combatents are people as well, they have agendas that are just as valid as yours.
Please look at the problem, not just the solution.
Your an entire post was well thought out. Whoever one starred you read half the post, ass(u)(me)d you were pro-buffbot, and responded accordingly. Whoever, did it, your ignorance is astounding. I am 5 starring you for a well made post...
However, for me its not about thinking of another's agenda, and only mine. I understand why people goto buffbots, during off peak times. But the cause and effect is two fold Straker:
1. Buffbots are a product of two things, first is greed, simple. Secondly is more complicated. During holotainment existance, entertainers, namely dancers and musicians went to other servers, quit the game, or the profession. So while the buffbot would-be's saw not enough buffs being available, and the ability to make bot'ed credits via doing no work.....
2. Now that holotainment is over, its now more habit than not. I can understand people wanting to hit a buffbot at 5am on an EST server, because they will not waste an hour or more looking for a live master, when (least on Wanderhome) they know the buffbot dancer / musician group is always up in the Coronet Cantina. However, when those same folks have the day off and are on a 7pm EST on the same server, they goto the buffbot's, whether or not there are plenty of masters about, even in the same cantina. (I know) Just beeline to the buffbots. While I been advertising that I'm buffing...
Given that? Those poor folk who complain about non peak time (a fair generalization) can not tell me they do not hit buffbots even during the peaktimes, so my sympathy falls by the wayside.
Edit:
Nobody is stopping from bringing the entertainer along. Most entertainers have some medic skills, we heal lightning fast in camps, if you are the house toting kind, we'll scare off the BF quick enough, etc. I have met a LOT of dancers that are tkm as well but stay in teh cantima more than not... But "making friends with entertainers" just so you can use them at a cantina so your own agenda isn't skewed won't cut it.
Message Edited by Springbok on 08-07-2004 12:58 PM
Springbok wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Please please don't ignore the mind buff issue.
Kill buffbots, but please make the following changes.
1. Entertainer buffs last 3 hours, so theymatch Doc buffs better.
2. Both Entertainer AND Doc buffs stack on themselves. When one wears out, the other kicks in. Make your trip back to town worthwhile.
Those 2 changes will make the REASONS that people love buffs bots go away.
It is easy to hate buff bots and their users, they hurt your plans and agenda. Yet remember that Combatents are people as well, they have agendas that are just as valid as yours.
Please look at the problem, not just the solution.
Your an entire post was well thought out. Whoever one starred you read half the post, ass(u)(me)d you were pro-buffbot, and responded accordingly. Whoever, did it, your ignorance is astounding. I am 5 starring you for a well made post...
However, for me its not about thinking of another's agenda, and only mine. I understand why people goto buffbots, during off peak times. But the cause and effect is two fold Straker:
1. Buffbots are a product of two things, first is greed, simple. Secondly is more complicated. During holotainment existance, entertainers, namely dancers and musicians went to other servers, quit the game, or the profession. So while the buffbot would-be's saw not enough buffs being available, and the ability to make bot'ed credits via doing no work.....
2. Now that holotainment is over, its now more habit than not. I can understand people wanting to hit a buffbot at 5am on an EST server, because they will not waste an hour or more looking for a live master, when (least on Wanderhome) they know the buffbot dancer / musician group is always up in the Coronet Cantina. However, when those same folks have the day off and are on a 7pm EST on the same server, they goto the buffbot's, whether or not there are plenty of masters about, even in the same cantina. (I know) Just beeline to the buffbots. While I been advertising that I'm buffing...
Given that? Those poor folk who complain about non peak time (a fair generalization) can not tell me they do not hit buffbots even during the peaktimes, so my sympathy falls by the wayside.
Edit:
Nobody is stopping from bringing the entertainer along. Most entertainers have some medic skills, we heal lightning fast in camps, if you are the house toting kind, we'll scare off the BF quick enough, etc. I have met a LOT of dancers that are tkm as well but stay in teh cantima more than not... But "making friends with entertainers" just so you can use them at a cantina so your own agenda isn't skewed won't cut it.
Message Edited by Springbok on 08-07-2004 12:58 PM
Thanks Spring,
It really has gotten so bad though on Scylla that the ONLY entertainers I know are Alts. I never see a real person selling buffs. I do look though.
Now more fuel was just dumped on the fire for this issue for me. As I have been pretty clear about, I feel that with the current state of the game, with buff times, and the lack of Entertainers, the problem needs to be fixed before buff bots go away. This WOULDN'T affect me as badly as some others, simply because I can just log in my Musician.
My Musician is a Master Droid Engineer as well. Now with the vendor nerf coming along, if I want to be a successful crafter, I will need to be a Master Merchant. Meaning I will have to give up Musician, which would mean my combat guy would need to look all over for buffs, yes even with buff bots. So now this dang buffbot issue is even pushing into my crafting.
While this may make some of you happy, simply because now many buffbots may go away as they turn into Merchants, this DOES raise problems for the servers without many Entertainers.
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
There is a much simpler solution to the "problem". Do away with buffs entirely. No Doctor buffs, no Entertainer buffs. Everyone is on the same level and no one is out soloing things that should only be possible with a strong group.
Have you ever actually fought a Nightsister? How about a Dragon? Tried the Corvette? If you had then you would never say something like that. Dead in seconds, the entire group.
Even if they did not hit you, how do you kill something with 350k HAM if you can only do 2 specials total?
Most of the buff addicted players do not hunt in groups, they wad to solo NS and krayts.
If SOE did reduce the doc buff to 2 hours, so they would fit better with the music/dance buffs you would have the same buff addicts cry out just as much as they are now.
The real issue is that many players have to learn that this is a multiplayer game, that that they are suppose to work together to take on the high end contend.
Also you admit that buffbots hurt Entertainers, but you say that they have to stay because mind buffs are hard to get, and getting them is inconvenient? Sorry fore your inconvenience, but that do not give you the excuse to destroy 2 professions!
All players have some kind of motivation for what they do, even if it is just that they like helping other people. And while entertainers did not become entertainers to make loads of credit, we still need credit.
Just like everyone else I wand to have a house that that takes maintains, I wand to decorate my house, and furniture and painting and the like cost credit. Travelling to different cantinas cost credit (4600 from my home town to the dantooine mining outpost). And most entertainers wand a new outfit every so often. We need credit just like everyone else, if we can not get enough for our merger needs we will stop being entertainers, or quit the game.
So if you want live dancers and musicians to be at the dantooine mining outpost then you better give them a reason to go there. My motivation for going there at the moment is the entertainment healing xp. I do not get to apply many buffs and I have never got a tip for just healing there, so am lucky if a trip there let me brake even.
I can make more credit in an hour running explore mission in my home town on a speeder bike, then I can buffing. So once I am master it will be unlikely that you fine me on dantooine to buff you. And if you wand people like be there you have better give us a reason to.
As to how many players on musician or dancer can serve with bufs ? Well if the entertainer is buffed or human they can apply a buff in 3 min and 10 sec. at to 19 people at the time. If we assume that only 16 people is being buffed at any one time (the rest having just joined the group or about to leave it), then a musician/dancer can apply a buff every 12 seconds. The buffs last for 2 hours so 600 player can get buffed before the first one have to be rebuffed.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Have you ever actually fought a Nightsister? How about a Dragon? Tried the Corvette? If you had then you would never say something like that. Dead in seconds, the entire group.
Even if they did not hit you, how do you kill something with 350k HAM if you can only do 2 specials total?
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Have you ever actually fought a Nightsister? How about a Dragon?
Yes I have. In a group with no one having any buffs, no armor, and only a couple of master level combat players. We all had fun, some of us died. Oh well. We still all had a blast and had as much fun later getting healed up and talking and joking about what it was like.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Yes, I posted a thread much similiar to this on the Macor thread, but I wanted to talk about it here.
AFK is a problem, lack of content is a problem, bugs are problems. Obviously, buff bots are a problem, however, let's step back a second.
Why do people use buff bots? Is it because they dislike Entertainers? Don't care? Are cheap?
Maybe in some cases yes. However, most people simply use them because they are convieniant and they can get those most out of their hunting time. Lets look at the problem.
While you (and other,) may feel that buffs are not needed all the time,I agree. The problem is this. Some races and professions are heavily reliant on Mind Buffs, while others are less so.
"Joe player" comes home from work, he has beenlooking forward toNightsisters, Krayt, PVP, or whatever all day long. For each of those things, you NEED mind buffs, or you will die fast or are limited with your specials. This is his goal, his agenda, he should be able to do his plan. It is what he pays for. Food can help, but even with food, it is sometimes not enough, plus you hit full stomich times.
When everybody logs in, they have a plan. They should be able to do what they want, within limits of course, but if it's legal, they should be able to do it.
Please bear with me, I feel this is a very important point and part of the problem.
Now look at Joe Players time schedule.
-He goes to Coronet, finds a doc, gets buffed, gets Musician and Dancer buffs as well, woot.
-10 minute wait for the shuttle to Dath with his friends. No problem, they talk.
-10 Minute travel time until they get to where they find some NS.
- With 2 hours and 40 minutes left on Doc buffs, and 1 hour and 40 minutes on Entertainer buffs, they begin to hunt. Great fun commences.
-1 hour and 30 minutes later, they see their Entertainer buffs are almost gone. Let's head back and get some more.
-10 minutes back to Dath outpost. Crap no Entertainer here. Dang, there usualy is a buff bot.
-10 minute shuttle wait to Coronet.
- Crap, it's 2AM and no Entertainers are here, but a friend said there is one in Theed.
-10 minute wait to Theed.
-Woot, no line, we got our Entertainer buffs, 2 hours to go.
- Crap, we only have 30 minutes on our Doc buffs. We can't get buffed again until they fall.
-So what do we do? Go hunt for 30 minutes, then look for a doc? By the time we get Doc buffed again and back, we will only have 1 hour left on our Entertainer buffs, then we need to come back again.
- You know what, screw it, lets log.
I KNOW buff bots are bad, I KNOW they hurt Entertainers, but you can't ignore the poor game design that makes people LOVE buff bots.
Since Doc and Entertainer buffs have such different times, you are basically doubling your trips back to town, Either that or you go back once, then wait over an hour for your Doc buffs to fall.
This is why people love Buff bots near where they hunt, 10 minutes of inconvieinace, vice hours. It has nothing to do with hating Entertainers.
Imagine the above situation if you are Overt.Planet hoping without Mind buffs is bad, you can't stack them either.
Please please don't ignore the mind buff issue.
Kill buffbots, but please make the following changes.
1. Entertainer buffs last 3 hours, so theymatch Doc buffs better.
2. Both Entertainer AND Doc buffs stack on themselves. When one wears out, the other kicks in. Make your trip back to town worthwhile.
Those 2 changes will make the REASONS that people love buffs bots go away.
It is easy to hate buff bots and their users, they hurt your plans and agenda. Yet remember that Combatents are people as well, they have agendas that are just as valid as yours.
Please look at the problem, not just the solution.
straker you make a good point BUT let me remind you that anything can be rationalized away... hell the nazi rationalized there thoughts to the public... let me say im not saying your a nazi or anything like that just they are the most extreem best case for this example. Here is my counter.
Im not sure if you were here at launch or near it but durring those days EVERYTHING took longer and honestly the spirit of the game was more fun. Things are in place to mak this game more fun now then then but the spirit is gone. It's my thought that that spirit was lost when everything became a mad rush all the time. This game is about living in the SW universe. What makes the life in this universe feel real or down in dirty is all of the interaction's required to do things. All the shoping, the different citys, finding people, waiting in line, waiting for shuttles (though the reduced wait is nice) everything that makes people eak out a different life. Before player city's there was still a city feel to each city and that feel was different per major city. Some had constant raids others were building up well known crafter resources others still were a blend.
Now back to the problem at hand. For me to address this you should know in the fps games i play i tear through them as fast and clean as I can... because thats THAT type of game. For your reasoning behind thislack of ents being why not do do this macro nerf. I ask why... it gives it the gritty feeling we need put back in the game. Now remember as you said there will be less entertainers which means many more will be going without mind buffs not just you. That means that it will be more the norm and thus you CAN pvp with out them. You can certainly PvE w/o them i do all the time since we cant self buff. Yes it is better and easier with, but it can be done w/o them. Remember change makes things different but that doesn't mean its bad.
Thats all i have to say for now but i hope it was valuable. Unfortunatly I didn't read the whole thread due to time constraints but hopefully it stayed on topic and thus this is on topic.
Lets say you and your friends prepare for a hunting trip by:
Get all buffed up on both doctor, dancer and musician buffs.
Use all the spice and food you can.
Is fully decked out in 80% base resist composite (or how ever good it cam become).
Use a PSG and krayt enhanced weapon
Now you are as strong as a non Jedi can be, and you group will kill juvenile krayt's with ease. But you like getting the best loot so you attack a ancient krayt, and now it is a struggle. So you have to call out for stronger buffs, better armour, better weapons, and so on, or you cannot kill the toughest mobs in the game without some of you dying.
If you get what you ask for the challenge is gone, as so you have to ask for even stronger mobs to get a challenge.
If you get the even stronger mobs, we will be back where we started, with you not being able to fight them with out several members of the group dying.
It is a never-ending spiral. Accept that some contend are not meant for your play style, it is mend for the players that love a challenge above al else, and the good loot is the reword they get for the larger risk taken and for all the "work" done to prepare for it.
Part of that work is maintaining good relations with the top nudge weapon smiths, armour smiths, doctors, and entertainers, so they have access to the best of the best equipment in game.
If you and your friends have amore laid back attitude towards the "work" of preparing then you will not be able to take on as though targets, and perhaps the juvenile krayt will be the target where half of you die. You simply have to fight something a little bit easier, to fine the balance between the effort you put in and the challenge you get out of it.
In short, some mobs are not mend to be taken on by anything but a group of 20 well trained players that knows how to work together, and even then they need all the professions, including a doctor to revive them in the field.