Armorsmith Archive
Thread: So, I have a layering question
Danathal wrote:
I agree, however I don't think it's as large as one would believe.
My armor is using not the best on the final combine and I am only losing 3 points in energy (the cores are 7714, and the armor is 8111).
Yea I agree, but with your cores being 7714 and hitting 8111, im at 7882 and in final assembly im hitting only 8016, there is something wrong there. Not sure what. The only thing it can be is the final assembly, but im not sure how. I mean, im using the prime resources such as voino, agawi, etc and getting 95% condtion experimented. It just makes no sense.
freedomwarrior wrote
So if im understanding you, I want to get my energy cores to around 7725 at the most to take full advantage of the 400 bonus.
No, I am not saying that. Don't base your numbers on a layered protection number unless you want to take intoaccount the 12 x layer protection sum. Always base your sums off unlayered cores and then just add the layer numbers afterwards.
I am saying use your recon segment and recon core resources to get over 4600K 6600E 5600B but as close to it. This will allow you to hit the caps but not overdo it. Then use the same resources to make your layered armor, just add the layers in. Note down what each layer gives you, multiple that number by 12 and add that to your final combine unlayered energy value which if you are making capped stuff should be 7000. This gives you the final energy protection you should expect to see.
Can you confirm the layer resources you are using? are they the same as Danatal's? What protection rating does a single energy layer indicate when you pull one out of the factory crate?
Danathal wrote:
Newt,
We are talking layers though. Ackrie makes maxed unlayered armor, AFAIK. The layers are what he';s questioning. The fact that my layers are at 7714, and I am getting 8111, and his are higher then mine, yet he's getting a lower combine total
My guess is thats because his energy layers are not as good as yours. You said your energy layers are 92.6/93.6, this gives you an energy layer addition to your unlayered armor of 12 x 92.6 = 1111. I also see from the numbers you posted that you can make capped unlayered stuff since 8111-7714 = 397, less than 400. I guess that you unlayered recon cores look like 4603K 6603E 5603B.
So add the 1111 to the unlayered capped value of 7000 and you get 8111 which is exactly what you are seeing. Ackies layer resources must be different to yours. His energy protection value is 8016, so 8016-7000 = 1016, divide by 12 to get 84.6.
I guess its possible he has found yet another bug of course 
Its not like layers are completely bug free at present with the display issue.
Checked the server best energy layer resources on Chilastra on swgcraft and came up with the following
Ferrous Metal Agawi Q 988 Sr 987 (you are using this)
Polymer Ahoe Q 967 SR 993 (you are using this)
Plexite Ahocigi Q 915 SR 403 (you are using this)
Alantium Foriite Q 828 SR 45 (you arent using this)
3rd best - Alantium Gasasis Q 665 SR 106 (you are using this)
Crunching the numbers for your resources, I have verified your 92.6 result. Question is what is Ackie using?
He mentioned Agawi in the thread but I can't see any other layer resources mentioned. So the possibilities are as follows:
1. Ackie is using different resources to you at the layer stage and hence his layers are not as good
2. Ackie is using the same resources but is not experimenting his layers fully, I seriously doubt this
3. Ackie has discovered another layer bug which results in a lower energy bonus than indicated.
WittyNewt wrote:
freedomwarrior wrote:
I used everything he did as well. Im thinking though that my segments were like 89.8 or 90.8 though. Hrmm. In addition, my when my final cores were done, they came out to 7882 energy. Thats what got me confused. His final cores were 7714 energy and its just hard to imagine a huge bell curve to actually make his cores better.
I am confused now. If you used exactly the same resources as Danatal then you should have got the same result. Are you sure you did full experimentation at each stage and didn't get a critical experimentation failure and not notice? I am not saying this in jest, I have had a couple of these lately and not noticed until I checked the stats after the component was made, armor crafting is so one click now, its easy to throw the points in and not pay close attention to the result.
Only other thing is that you have found another bug. With the same resources you should not get 7882 energy at core stage and he gets 7714 at core stage.
I don't understand the 89.8, 90.8 bit about segments, do you mean layers here? that would make more sense.
Basically, from the numbers you have both posted, you and Danatal are making capped armor with the chosen segment and core resources. Danatal appears to be hitting around 5603 elemental on an unlayered core and his energy layers add 1111 total (12 X 92.6) and you appear to be hitting around 5866 elemental on an unlayered core and your energy layers add 1016 total (12 x ~85). If this is with exactly the same resources and you are both experimenting fine then there is something seriously broken here and it is not something I have seen. All of my craftingspost CU have beencompletely repeatable.
You also need to stop focussing on the energy core result as some sort of bellweather. The final assembly result for layering works as "unlayered result with those resources plus the layer protection additions". If you energy layers are rubbish you will not increase you energy result at the final assembly if you go higher than 5600 elemental.
As an example, say my segment and core resources give me an 4600K 6600E 5600B unlayered core and a final combine at the cap 5000K 7000E 6000B (add the maximum 400 final combine). I add 90/-91 energy layers for a total energy layer bonus of 12 x 90 = 1080 to this and I will get a 3520K 7680E 5600B core and a 3920K 8080E 6000B final combine. I now use better segment and core resources to give me a 4900K 6900E 5900B unlayered core and the same unalyered final combine of 5000K 7000E 6000B. If I now add my enrgy layers to this I will still get the same 3920K 8080E 6000B final combine layered armor.
Exactly. I understand this part all too well. But the key here is in the segments and layers going into the final core. I understand all that. And as you put it, with a final core result of 7882 on energy, I just find it hard to imagine a drop in energy as you are stating. Yes I understand that if an energy layer is 85/-86 this will directly affect the segments and cores. However, thats why im staying confused because everything you have said there is what ive done. As far as a crit fail, its possible. I get them so infrequently and with not seeing the final result it is possible, but I dont believe so. Im just lost how how and why the results are eschewed. I know that there is a small bellcurve on final stats based upon all of this, just find it hard to imagine such a large curve.
Oh well, im going to make up some new layering tonight and replay with it. Thanks for trying to explain it to me, and im sure ive frustrated you vigorously, but like i said, I suck at math.
freedomwarrior wrote:
Exactly. I understand this part all too well. But the key here is in the segments and layers going into the final core. I understand all that. And as you put it, with a final core result of 7882 on energy, I just find it hard to imagine a drop in energy as you are stating. Yes I understand that if an energy layer is 85/-86 this will directly affect the segments and cores. However, thats why im staying confused because everything you have said there is what ive done. As far as a crit fail, its possible. I get them so infrequently and with not seeing the final result it is possible, but I dont believe so. Im just lost how how and why the results are eschewed. I know that there is a small bellcurve on final stats based upon all of this, just find it hard to imagine such a large curve.
Oh well, im going to make up some new layering tonight and replay with it. Thanks for trying to explain it to me, and im sure ive frustrated you vigorously, but like i said, I suck at math.
No problem m8, I hope I haven't come across as patronising or anything, I am now as confused as you are and I am at a loss to explain the differences you are seeing. I am now beginning to believe that something has changed crafting wise since pub 19. I haven't actually done any layer, seg and core crafting post pub 19. I made loads of components plus schematics pre pub 19 and have been slowly burning through them. I have been mightly frustrated by the colour/crate bug that I have focussed on custom handbuilt armor in the last few weeks and so my usage of my components has gone right down.
Let me know how you get on, I am as keen as you to understand this issue you seem to have stumbled on too
freedomwarrior wrote:
I used everything he did as well. Im thinking though that my segments were like 89.8 or 90.8 though. Hrmm. In addition, my when my final cores were done, they came out to 7882 energy. Thats what got me confused. His final cores were 7714 energy and its just hard to imagine a huge bell curve to actually make his cores better.
I am confused now. If you used exactly the same resources as Danatal then you should have got the same result. Are you sure you did full experimentation at each stage and didn't get a critical experimentation failure and not notice? I am not saying this in jest, I have had a couple of these lately and not noticed until I checked the stats after the component was made, armor crafting is so one click now, its easy to throw the points in and not pay close attention to the result.
Only other thing is that you have found another bug. With the same resources you should not get 7882 energy at core stage and he gets 7714 at core stage.
I don't understand the 89.8, 90.8 bit about segments, do you mean layers here? that would make more sense.
Basically, from the numbers you have both posted, you and Danatal are making capped armor with the chosen segment and core resources. Danatal appears to be hitting around 5603 elemental on an unlayered core and his energy layers add 1111 total (12 X 92.6) and you appear to be hitting around 5866 elemental on an unlayered core and your energy layers add 1016 total (12 x ~85). If this is with exactly the same resources and you are both experimenting fine then there is something seriously broken here and it is not something I have seen. All of my craftingspost CU have beencompletely repeatable.
You also need to stop focussing on the energy core result as some sort of bellweather. The final assembly result for layering works as "unlayered result with those resources plus the layer protection additions". If you energy layers are rubbish you will not increase you energy result at the final assembly if you go higher than 5600 elemental.
As an example, say my segment and core resources give me an 4600K 6600E 5600B unlayered core and a final combine at the cap 5000K 7000E 6000B (add the maximum 400 final combine). I add 90/-91 energy layers for a total energy layer bonus of 12 x 90 = 1080 to this and I will get a 3520K 7680E 5600B core and a 3920K 8080E 6000B final combine. I now use better segment and core resources to give me a 4900K 6900E 5900B unlayered core and the same unalyered final combine of 5000K 7000E 6000B. If I now add my enrgy layers to this I will still get the same 3920K 8080E 6000B final combine layered armor.