Armorsmith Archive
Thread: How I would change armor...one Master's perspective
Okram2k wrote:
If it ain't broke...
In my opinion, the current armorsmith system is not that bad. Sure it's a profession dominated by masters, but so is every other profession. When I was a young novicearmorsmith, I made lots of sets of mabari, and sold 'em on the bazaar for good prices, and scraped together money to get harvesters, factories, ect. As I moved up the tree I made a set of chitin which sold really fast, and started making several sets of ubese which also sold pretty well on the bazaar too. Once I mastered armorsmith, I began concentrating on ubese and composite, because as you all know, that's where the money is. But I still make padded and mabari quite a bit (mabari as a nice gift for new players, and padded for my guildmates when they supply me wtih fambaa segments and lokian leathery hide)
To me, they have a simple yet effective system for regulating armor, the more protection, the more the encumberance. If you don't know what you're doing you could easily make 80% kinetic, 60% base composite with a total suit encumberance above a thousand (my first ever tripple layered set had 950, 980, 1050, boy that was a waste of resources) Making armor vs Weapons Rock, Paper, Scissors styleis not the answer to you being bored with making composite. I think we need more unique types of quest armor. As they have RIS, and soon mandalorian armor, I would like more quests, maybe quests for factions to get schematics for faction armor, and quests to get more unique types of armor. They are starting to add them, and I think they area refreshing change to the Armorsmith profession.
Don't misinterpret ideas for boredom. I'm quite content hammering out compo, but I would also like a reason to do the others that would justify gathering the best resources. I refuse to make junk so unless the other armor types have a valid use, they are a waste.
...and I do think the system is broken, one look at the game's economy is all you need to be convinced of that.
...so your solution is to nerf one area of the game to make compo unwearable so people have to downgrade? doesn't that seem counter-productive to you?
shouldn't the idea be to EXPAND options rather than limit them?
what we're really talking about here is expanding the role of the other armor types, not simply nerfing one thing and hoping it fixes the problem.
Taewyn wrote:you may be forgetting that it USED to work exactly as you describedThats what I said.....And in the begining of the game (first 2 months) chittin/Ubese were much mroe prevelent then comp....Simply because you could *not* wear comp...I *can* blame this one on buffs...If 500 encumberance were a big deal (like it should be) then comp would be alot less popular...Imagine if putting on comp forced your HAM specials to *triple*........Imagine if comp took 45 seconds to remove and while you were in comp your regen was slowed to a snails pace....Then all of the sudden encumebrance does matter...All of the sudden comp is not the end all be all of armor...That is the *only* way to kill the "tank mage"......Restrict his offense because of his defense....The less defense somone has the more offense they should have....So armors like ubese which are light should offer a small amoutn of defense...while not restricting special usage/regen much at all....While Comp should offer a large amount of defense (like it does now) but it should also restrict your specials and regen greatly ( which it does not do now)....To fix the system you much first fix the underlying issues...Changing armor is only going after the symptom, not the cause...The devs have made that mistake before (crafting changes) and I hope they dont do it again...Run a test if you dont belive me.....Wear a suit of comp unbuffed...And go hunting.....Watch how much it slows you down and ask yourself "Would I actually do *better* without this comp armor"Then where a set of ubese and hunt the same mobs.....It will slow you down *alot* less.....Then you should relize buffs have broken this game...Nothing should triple a players power....Its ludicrous,,,,,
Nerfing buffs alone arent the issue unless you want to tone down the damage higher end mobs do. If im at 1.5k health and my substats are **edit** because we can only do 1k buffs to them a NS elder or any other high end mob will still tear me up despite the 80% kinetic armor I have on. You cant take away a tanks ability to, well, tank.
what we're really talking about here is expanding the role of the other armor types, not simply nerfing one thing and hoping it fixes the problem.
There is no "hope" about it....I am not sure if any of you have had much experience in other MMO's....But for the most part the "tank mage" is something that will ruin a game....I will explain..
The tank mage is somone who can produce a huge amount of DPS (Damage per second) while also mitigating/avoiding a large amount of damage from mobs/other players...
Comp armor+buffs=Tank mage....
Players who are buffed *and* in comp armor can effectivly maintain the same DPS they had without armor *and* receive a huge defensive mitigation bonus....Literraly the creatures damage is lowered by 60-70%..There is no "trade off" for this defense bonus, you simple get it....Thats where the "grame breaking" aspect comes in.
If composite armor had a big trade off...Like lets say making it so you can only fire your specials every 4-5 seconds rather then 2 seconds...Then your DPS would be cut by 50%..So, in effect, you lost 50% of your DPS and gained 65% more HAM. That is an example of a balanced trade off...More protection, less offense....
Comp armor shouldcut your DPSby a huge amount .....Ubese (because it offers less protection) shouldcut yourdpsdown less....So damage dealers would wear armors like Ubese, or nothing...And tanks would wear Comp.....Variety is then added, as players choose how much of a "trade off" they are willing to make for defense....
If your role in a Krayt Dragon hunt is to do damage, then you should not want to wear comp armor...If it is to tank the Krayt, then you should...(because your DPS should not matter much, your pirmary job is to take damage)
If im at 1.5k health and my substats are **edit** because we can only do 1k buffs to them a NS elder or any other high end mob will still tear me up despite the 80% kinetic armor I have on. You cant take away a tanks ability to, well, tank.
You should not be tanking those mobs by "yourself"...Those mobs were designed for groups of 10+...With 80% kinetic, and 1k sub stats and 1.5k health you should have *no* problem killing any mob in this game with ten people....
Message Edited by Taewyn on 04-15-2004 05:40 PM
Taewyn wrote:what we're really talking about here is expanding the role of the other armor types, not simply nerfing one thing and hoping it fixes the problem.
There is no "hope" about it....I am not sure if any of you have had much experience in other MMO's....But for the most part the "tank mage" is something that will ruin a game....I will explain..
The tank mage is somone who can produce a huge amount of DPS (Damage per second) while also mitigating/avoiding a large amount of damage from mobs/other players...
Comp armor+buffs=Tank mage....
Players who are buffed *and* in comp armor can effectivly maintain the same DPS they had without armor *and* receive a huge defensive mitigation bonus....Literraly the creatures damage is lowered by 60-70%..There is no "trade off" for this defense bonus, you simple get it....Thats where the "grame breaking" aspect comes in.
If composite armor had a big trade off...Like lets say making it so you can only fire your specials every 4-5 seconds rather then 2 seconds...Then your DPS would be cut by 50%..So, in effect, you lost 50% of your DPS and gained 65% more HAM. That is an example of a balanced trade off...More protection, less offense....
Comp armor shouldcut your DPSby a huge amount .....Ubese (because it offers less protection) shouldcut yourdpsdown less....So damage dealers would wear armors like Ubese, or nothing...And tanks would wear Comp.....Variety is then added, as players choose how much of a "trade off" they are willing to make for defense....
If your role in a Krayt Dragon hunt is to do damage, then you should not want to wear comp armor...If it is to tank the Krayt, then you should...(because your DPS should not matter much, your pirmary job is to take damage)
If im at 1.5k health and my substats are **edit** because we can only do 1k buffs to them a NS elder or any other high end mob will still tear me up despite the 80% kinetic armor I have on. You cant take away a tanks ability to, well, tank.
You should not be tanking those mobs by "yourself"...Those mobs were designed for groups of 10+...With 80% kinetic, and 1k sub stats and 1.5k health you should have *no* problem killing any mob in this game with ten people....
Message Edited by Taewyn on 04-15-2004 05:40 PM
Your right, these mobs arent meant to be taken on solo (sorry but 10 people is overkill, not everyone likes a big hunt and the nice thing about the high end content in this game is that it can be done in small groups or large groups).
Stop thinking within the current system, with 1500 health and almost no regen your going to be taken down pretty easy, even with armor some mobs can hit you for upwards to 600 damage. If your intimidation fails on the first couple tries consider it a rather quick fight.
There should be a cost when wearing armor, I completely agree, nerfing buffs isnt the solution. The devs have already talked about a change in system where your special move HAM cost wont be based on your current ham or buffs but on a seperate point system, that right there would take care alot of the problems with being able to spam specials.
But you simply cant keep 80-90% resist armor around at least in PvP, it completely removes any use of the vast majority of professions.
Lets take a zab, 400-450 base stats on our H/A substats.
You say let people buff it up 1000 points, that brings them to about 1450, add in 1000 encumberance armor and im left with normal base stat of 450 again.
Taewyn wrote:
what we're really talking about here is expanding the role of the other armor types, not simply nerfing one thing and hoping it fixes the problem.
There is no "hope" about it....I am not sure if any of you have had much experience in other MMO's....But for the most part the "tank mage" is something that will ruin a game....I will explain..
The tank mage is somone who can produce a huge amount of DPS (Damage per second) while also mitigating/avoiding a large amount of damage from mobs/other players...
Comp armor+buffs=Tank mage....
I like your UO reference of a tank mage there...lol...and yes I have played half a dozen MMORPGs but I would humbly suggest you're boxing the problem into buffs and compo when it's much bigger. Buffs and compo are the result of the problem, not the cause. If you stop and think about it, the devs didn't simply dictate compo was the best which caused all players to gravitate towards it...the players gravitated towards it because in practical application all other armor types don't work. Therein lies our difference of opinion. You're suggesting nerfing compo and/or buffs will solve the problem, I'm suggesting bring the other armor types up to speed with compo to balance out the equation. I agree compo needs changed, but I disagree with limiting the use of compo. Limitations == Boring Gameplay. Rather than limit the player's use of the armor, make it a little less effective so it ISN'T the beat all armor, and bring the other types of armor up to speed so they are MORE effective in the areas compo isn't. This should balance out the scale a great deal. With every "nerf", thereneeds to be an equal and opposite "buff" in another area. Otherwise nerfs simply about to nothing more than limitations which equal a boring game.
Players who are buffed *and* in comp armor can effectivly maintain the same DPS they had without armor *and* receive a huge defensive mitigation bonus....Literraly the creatures damage is lowered by 60-70%..There is no "trade off" for this defense bonus, you simple get it....Thats where the "grame breaking" aspect comes in.
I think here you're bringing in damage mitigation and it doesn't really apply to armor per say. I think that's a seperate discussion.
If composite armor had a big trade off...Like lets say making it so you can only fire your specials every 4-5 seconds rather then 2 seconds...Then your DPS would be cut by 50%..So, in effect, you lost 50% of your DPS and gained 65% more HAM. That is an example of a balanced trade off...More protection, less offense....
Heavy armor already does affect your specials. Whether your stats are buffed to 2500 or still back at 500, encumbrancestill has aneffect. You put on a suit of 1000 ham compo, your specials are gonna cost more with stats at 1500 then if you took the armor off and had stats at 2500. The difference is HAM costs at 500 stats are insanely high for most high damage weaps, so you need buffs to balance them out to reasonable levels. Noone is gonna be able to pop off crippling shots at 2.5x the ham costs on a weapon thathas 100 ham. Again I don't think this is a result of compo, I think it's a result of high ham weaps with all the optional components. This is the same issue with layers, you can't simply nerf em and limit the player's use of these items. So the buffs are in place to literally ALLOW us to use em.
Comp armor shouldcut your DPSby a huge amount .....Ubese (because it offers less protection) shouldcut yourdpsdown less....So damage dealers would wear armors like Ubese, or nothing...And tanks would wear Comp.....Variety is then added, as players choose how much of a "trade off" they are willing to make for defense....
If your role in a Krayt Dragon hunt is to do damage, then you should not want to wear comp armor...If it is to tank the Krayt, then you should...(because your DPS should not matter much, your pirmary job is to take damage)
If im at 1.5k health and my substats are **edit** because we can only do 1k buffs to them a NS elder or any other high end mob will still tear me up despite the 80% kinetic armor I have on. You cant take away a tanks ability to, well, tank.
You should not be tanking those mobs by "yourself"...Those mobs were designed for groups of 10+...With 80% kinetic, and 1k sub stats and 1.5k health you should have *no* problem killing any mob in this game with ten people....
I beg to differ. Not everyone WANTS to have to group to go hunting. This may be a selfish statement but I pay the same $15 a month that you do and I much prefer to make my own kills and get my own loot. Without buffs and good armor, I couldn't do any of that and I go back to my statement of Limitations == Boring Gameplay. If players couldn't solo anything stronger than a squill or shaupaut, how much fun are they really going to have? My position on that is let me solo the big stuff and just make even BIGGER things for groups...like the new Corvette adventure.
Message Edited by Taewyn on 04-15-2004 05:40 PM
I personally do not see it as a resource issue, at least not in the same respect as you seem to. For one thing, compo need all of 6 resources...anyone who can't gather that up in decent stats has no business being a crafter. Even if compo needed 20 different resources, master crafters would still go to the ends of the earth to get the best stuff to squeeze out every last %. It's just the nature of the beast. The reason many smiths refuse to gather the resources for other types is NOT because it's hard, but because the armor itself does not stack up.
There will always be hardcore holdouts who refuse to do anything with compo, heck I was one of em for months after making master...but eventually EVERYONE moves to compo for one simple reason...nothing beats 80%+ base!! This fact is just simply unavoidable and no other armor type can match it...hence the problem.
It's really just simple math and nothing more. The #1 request I get for armor is 80% kinetic (even more so than stun). Once players understand what is possible, it becomes a simple question...If you can get 80% kinetic 65% base compo, and slice it's enc down to the mid 400's where you can wear it without doc buffs, why buy anything else?
No other armor type can beat those stats, not even Ubese. There are still a few Ubese lovers out there who swear behind their 75% kinetic suits...but every one of em who's wandered into my shop,loves Ubese because they really do not understand what we can do with compo now. They still think compo is stuck at 900 hams and they don't want to be forced to get doc buffs to wear it. Every one of em who's taken the time to ask...and I do mean EVERY SINGLE ONE...I've explained it to them and they've tried a set of low-ham compo and never looked back. They see a suit of low-ham compo and can't believe it even exists.
DirthNader wrote:
The only thing that revamping comp would do (short of nerfing the max resistances) is require me as an armorsmith to stock even more types of armor, something I really don't want to do.
My personal line of thought is similar but a tad different than yours - I think every armor should postentially be able to be triple layered and have 80% base, from Bone to Ubese. Thus, rather than make every armor weaker, you make them stronger. The catch would be this: the lower down on the food chain armor is (bone being the lowest), the more you will need loot drops to achieve it - and the armor should be based on the most common loot drops (i.e. based on a 4% base ns layer rather than the exceptional 22%).
So, if someone wants 80% bone armor, they can have it, IF they get say, the loot drops for the segments from the Kimogilas. Thus, it brings importance to the loot drops as well.
That's my take.