Armorsmith Archive

Vevy I like being challenged therefore give me a couple of days so I can clearly and consisely think about the issues involved and then I will put exact numbers up. Whereas you saw a rant I think it very necessary to frame the issue in the scope of the problem and not talk simply at so high a level that armorsmiths understand but nonarmorsmiths don't and from Shi's post I really don't think Shi does understand the issues involved. However I will not fault the poster for their passion or veracity of their opinion. You want numbers very well I will give you numbers. I am going to challenge you back you bring me numbers as well and I would challenge all armorsmiths to do the same sothat we can tell our correspondant what we can and will live with and what wefind is unacceptable.

One final thing, I seeno evidence whatsoever that thunderheartor anyone else moniters these forums or these posts. All I have seen is the propensity to ignore the will of the people who play.

Natanial Storm

Natanial,

First off thank you for not taking any offense to my response. I can come off abrasive at times and I certainly never mean anything personally when I disagree with something someone says.

For a bit of a background, you are correct I am not nor have I ever been an armorsmith. However, CATS does boast one of if not the best armorsmith on our server, Kasparra Slen. And while I won't speak for her, her and I have had many discussions on this topic and she is of similar mindset to me. I know more than the average non-armorsmith does about your issues and what it takes to be a great armorsmith, but I won't pretend to know it all.

That being said, I agree that the concept of 'nerf' or reduction in effectiveness is never something easy for anyone to swallow once they've tasted power. But I do believe that this must happen in armor and a couple other areas (buffs) as well to keep the game enjoyable for most.

Synthsteak does indeed always stack with armor (yes I'm just a chef/weaponsmith but I have several alts that pvp regularly) as does the PSG (again in extensive testing with my PA I have not yet found an instance where it failed me, though they've only been working as of recently so I'll keep an open mind here). Even if neither of these products worked, armor alone with "buffs" (my generic term for Doc enhances, music enhances, dancer enhances, and any other stat altering food or spice) makes a single player an awesome force in pvp and pve. Combine that with the innate abilities and defenses of any melee class and some ranged classes and compared to the movies or even real life each and every one of us is a walking jedi defensively (hell, even moreso than existing jedi in the game in some cases).

Unfortunately simply making something the master level of a skill is not enough of a deterrant to keep it from being very popular. Humans are not donkeys, if you dangle a carrot in front of one they WILL get it and rather quickly. That's the real problem with the majority of the crafting trees. Because the Master Level of them makes one best (and by a fair margin) at the craft, anyone who is not a master is considered 'weak' or 'crappy' by the customers of the products being made. Even beyond that, competitive players will seek the crafters with the better resources (some of which may have only once spawned or not spawned in months) which also cuts down on how effective newer crafters and/or lesser skilled crafters do business. I don't know what the answer to this is. I think it's wrong that for a crafter to be able to sell the majority of their products (there are a few exceptions) they have to be Master level. But I don't know how you go about balancing it so that hitting Master is still worth the trouble yet not hitting it is a viable alternative for someone that wants to specialize in a certain direction.

I am hoping and praying that in this highly anticipated (indeed by many, moreso than the jedi changes) combat rebalance the Devs are looking at ALL armor and adjusting accordingly to give them all some place on the battlefield, and not just 'nerfing' composite to 30% or whatever. I certainly didn't mean that's what I want to see happen. I merely feel that the current crop of 80-90% composite that is indeed commonplace in pve/pvp is overbalanced and in need of a change.

I largely agree with you on what needs to happen, which you can see in my response. Ideally I would prefer to see ALL armor having a place and a use. Currently that just is not the case and that is partially because composite is just TOO GOOD, but also because other armor is not GOOD ENOUGH. Both of these things have to change, not just one, I agree.

I still have a little faith left seeing the upcoming jedi changes and how it seems they might actually be listening to the community over there for a change (case in point: lightsabers getting their own damage type with vulnerabilities in all armor/monsters).

I'm just tired of the current world of pvp where you must have a combat medic (the one damage dealer that ignores armor) or dot effect weapon in order to kill anyone without vastly outnumbering them.

I'm also tired of the current world of pve where the devs put in 'uber' monsters with 90-100% resists, heavy armor, and exceedingly large amounts of HAM just to give us gods a challenge.

Both of these things need to change, in my opinion. And part of that changing has to happen in the form of making us players LESS powerful.

One final comment: Any 'nerf' upcoming for the sake of balance MUST occur accross the board to all existing equipment as well as any being newly made. That was the big problem most people (myself included) had with the 'crafting experimentation nerf' from a few months ago. Not the idea behind the change itself, but the fact that many would be able to 'overstock' on 'pre-patch' equipment and unbalance things even further. I really hope any combat rebalance changes that involve items in the game get similarly rebalanced and not left in a 'pre-patch' status, as that will completely break the game in my opinion.

-Shi

Message Edited by Shimond on 05-29-2004 07:47 AM

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Dynastar wrote:
There is something quite silly with the fact that the only mob I avoid on Dathomir is a Nightsister Elder. Anything else, I lay waste to with either my T21 or quite limited melee abilities. This is due partially to buffs, but moreso thanks to armor. Hell, I don't even use 80% composite, I use 70ish% Ubese for it. If this doesn't set off bells and whistles in your head that something is wrong, you need a CAT scan.

Oh, Zenobia. People will buy the best armor period. If 40% is the best, it'll sell. Why? They don't have any other choice. They can **edit** and moan that they bought 80% last week, but that won't change. No one else will have 80%+ armor, so they can take their armor and get over it. I will have to admit though, the promise of you quitting if this change comes does make it more appealing.

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I find this highly amusing since you buy my armor regularly, ramsey. I roleplay Lillith as a sweet and nice person. Zenobia is my villain. Before making personal attacks, please learn to understand the concept of roleplay. I'm posting OOC on these forums about the armorsmithing profession because I genuinely enjoy crafting and don't want to see it nerfed into oblivion.

1. Composite is very strong for what you have to do to get it. I agree with Vevy in that you should probably give it another vulnerability. I understand that all armors will eventually be made vulnerable to lightsaber damage and perhaps this will help when more people begin to unlock and aquire a jedi character. However, nerfing composite down to a 50% max is rediculous.

2. If you nerfed armor down to a 50% max, it's value WOULD go down. I just can't see that not happening.

3. Doctors buffs are not to blame. The unbalanced combat system as well as the lack of mid ranged mobs and the lack of armor alternatives has created composite Gods.

4. Perhaps a better solution would be to leave compo protections where they are and up it's enc so that you could ONLY tank when wearing it. Then fix the other armors so that padded (for instance) could hit high heat resist, have base in the 40's, and much lower ham. That'd make padded much more practical and you'd see a shift toward it. (padded is only an example) That could possibly make it to where only tanks would wear compo.

5. Another solution would be to fix quested armor so that it has the stats of current high end compo with low ham. If they made compo have an enc of 12-1400, and then fixed RIS, then perhaps people would start questing for thier armor. Although this would cause RIS component spawns to be horribly camped. Then there's the fact that most successful armorsmiths don't have the time to do all the special orders that this would bring about. Just something else to think about.

At any rate, I sincerely hope Sony doesn't simply swing the nerf bat and run as they are generally apt to do. Before you guys start crying to nerf your own profession perhaps you'd best take into account some of the other "fixes" sony has implemented. We don't want to wind up like droid engineers.

Shi,

I am well aware of Kasparra having seen Vymordriss's armor a while back. With that said your absolutely right CATS does have one of the best armorsmiths on the server. I have immense respect for her work and even more respect for the fact that she is probably one of the best kept secret armorsmiths on the server instead of one of the gaudy flashy ones.

Now with that said I agree totally with you on the PvP issue. My concern is solely with PvE. I know and were both agreed on thePvP concernsright now. This is evidenced by the server population of clones we currently have.

With that said Shi, the synthsteak bug issue has been documented by the Armorsmith correspondant in this very forum. I would also call your attention to tests performed on PSG's andalso documented in this forum under the outstanding issues topic.I would also personally dispute the contention that the Shield generators are working as they should have as I just recently tested this as well with a new batch of Mark 3's. My Jedi right now and I just logged him on to confirm it has a PSG that I opened two weeks ago and equipped. Its currently at full condition after gaining 6 boxes (entire power line and two force healing boxes) as well as dodging 3 groups of hunters that currently have my mission. In addition I have PvP'd with this particular shield generator taking my Jedi to Dantooine and recently Trinity City looking for trouble. Despite all of this action the shield generator is at full capacity =/.

I would be happy to test it with you as well if you would like if you would like to see it for yourself.

The Above Rant is Solely THE Opinion of...

Natanial Storm

Message Edited by WarlordRhawn on 05-31-2004 02:13 AM

Did you try unequipping it and re-equipping it? I've been hearing that when you shuttle/zone/log it gets turned 'off' so you have to take it off and put it back on occasionally. I've been getting back into PVP quite a bit recently and while I don't doubt there may be bugs with the way they and synthsteak work, I find them exceptionally reliable and they haven't failed me (with synth and a PSG jawa users cannot hurt me, it forces them to use a T21). The combat logs show the resists working for me, and the damage seems to indicate it as well as I live a great deal longer with that preparation than without.

(for the record I'm using one of the Imperial PSGs, not a MK3)

-Shi

Message Edited by Shimond on 05-31-2004 09:14 AM

I think some sort of balance with buffs and armor is in order, but, I'm not gonna lie....the only reason I'm pissed is that I just spent all of my money on 2 sets of 90% composite armor and it's now going to be useless. My interests atm are self centered, but I knowthese changes will make the game more fun for me over time.

I'm not that naive to think they will allow pre-nerf composite will be allowed to exist, but I'll be damned if some cheapass spent 300k on his 60% set and his is fully functional post patch and both ofmy 3 million credit sets of armor is nerfed to 60% (same as his). To make it fair, to the people who spent a lot on armor and the people who spent a little on armor, then should take away a % of the effectiveness of all pieces at the patch. Maybe a 30% reduction on all existing pieces across the board. At least, that way, people who spent a lot of cash on the best armor will still, relatively, have the best armor. Of course, this would take a lot of coding.......and lots of time...and it will be bugged.

I'm very confused about it so it will be very interesting to learn more when the devs announces what the combat revamp will mean. Lots of things says it's the right thing to do, that we're too powerful as it is now and that this needs to be changed. But except for the inbalance in PvP, I'm not sure that I know how exactly the currentsystemis hurting us as players.

What are we looking for when we say this needs to be done? Challenge, justice or just a principle about how MMOs are "supposed to work"?

Challenge?
We allready have the option to remove armor and play without buffs if we want more challenge. Or without armor but with buffs etc. Or do the Corvette and

Justice?
That would mean those who did wouldn't have a chance competing with others around them when it comes to loot and xp, but that is in a way allready the case. A casual gamer with standard armor and weapons without skilltapes or a wallet to support 100% foodbuffs can't compete with a hardcore player. And that will always be the case, in any system worth playing. And the hardcore gamer will always make sure he's as powerful as the current system allows.

Principles?
And what is it that says that a MMO shouldn't work the way swg currently works? After every subscriber can't be waiting for the combat revamp. A lot of people are probably happy the way it works right now. Personally I'm semi happy. I'd like more challenge but not the kind of challenge that the Corvette or DWB gives me. There's no incentive in that for me. I did the Corvette day after launch, got the AV-21 I wanted and I defended it on the boards against everyone who found it too hardbut after thatI have never felt like doing it again. Is that because I'm alamer who prefers shooting fish in a barrel? I don't know. Is it because I don't understand or accept the heart of the MMO, the need for interdependency? I don't know but it would be interesting to know how many people are doing the Corvette now 2 months after release. And why.

This is a huge discussion, but the important question is: should players be forced into challenge and interdependency or should the game present the right incentives for it? For me there's only one answer. I know the devs of course have this in mind so it will be very interesting to see what kind of work they are doing/will do.

But all of you who says we are all too powerful etc, are you doing the Corvette and now the DWB regulary? Because if the devs simply just cut the resists on armor and nerfed buffs etc, that is what we should expect the whole game to be. And that seems to be the challenge you are looking for when you wish things were as they were back when you died 100m from Smuggler Outpost.

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Akinoor wrote:

But all of you who says we are all too powerful etc, are you doing the Corvette and now the DWB regulary? Because if the devs simply just cut the resists on armor and nerfed buffs etc, that is what we should expect the whole game to be. And that seems to be the challenge you are looking for when you wish things were as they were back when you died 100m from Smuggler Outpost.

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Vevy wrote:

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Akinoor wrote:

But all of you who says we are all too powerful etc, are you doing the Corvette and now the DWB regulary? Because if the devs simply just cut the resists on armor and nerfed buffs etc, that is what we should expect the whole game to be. And that seems to be the challenge you are looking for when you wish things were as they were back when you died 100m from Smuggler Outpost.

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You bring up a good point here...if you read through 9 out of 10 posts in this thread you'll see one players whining about what another player should or shouldn't be able to do. Unfortunately most of the players in this game have little to no objectivity and they think everyone should conform to their level of gameplay for one reason or another. Some have adopted the wookie mentality that says if I can't wear armor then noone should be able to...others say that they prefer to play without armor and buffs for their own personal challenge, so that means everyone else should be shoehorned into that same style as well.

Exactly, this is what bothers me too. From my own experiences, this attitude is easy to take when you're not happy with your own situation and instead of adapting you want everyone else to be as miserable as yourself. Instead of realizing that this game system, as real life, isn't fair and just and will never be becauseit's not possible to create a perfect system.

What means something is how you adapt to it and how you see yourself in it. If you can do that in a positive and constructive way, you'll understand that it doesn't matter what the guy next to you is doing. Let him solo 12 ancient krayts in a row if that makes him happy as long as you're happy struggling without buffs and armor against akreetle

With this I'm not saying Status Quo is fine and it's only up to the players to adapt, but remember that the game is only what YOU make it. The challenge for the devs is to give us players many possibilities to do so.

Before you just come in here and cry nerf...stop to think if you have ANY solutions at all that actually fix the problem. If you don't, then you really are part of the problem, not the solution.

Word!

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