Architect Archive
Thread: Bloop
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StumanKadir
Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:17 pm
#1
Gotta love the edit button some days 
A couple of things that have come out of this thread......
(a) I don't really care much about this question anymore, its allowed in game and doesn't seem to be going to change at any time soon so really everyones opinions are moot.
(b) Such hate can be generated by some people in this game, and really, you have to wonder at their maturity levels (or lack of ).
).(c) Most people just want to left alone by the party-downers and just want to have fun.
I would like everyone to please note the following
I have removed the paragraph that was here (erroneously referring to an architect who I believed could produce a large supply of components based on lot sharing). This was donein whole to an error in understanding on my part and an erro in judgement on my part. I was mistaken in my comment and erred in using it as an example here. The information that I based it on was purely heresay and not based on fact. Again, my deepest apologies to those concerned and my deep regret at having made this comment at all. I was wrong to make it at all - even as a passing aside.
Message Edited by StumanKadir on 07-10-2004 11:56 PM
Colaboy
Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:18 pm
#2
I dont see a way they can make it to where people cant lot trade... We are allowed to make multiple characters on different servers, and those characters have 10 lots each. If I placed a house and a harvester on every server I have a character on, and if I paid 30 days worth of maintenance on everyone of them, I expect those harvesters and houses to be there on the 29th day, no exceptions.
Itwould have been ignorant forthe devsnotto expect players to lot trade, cause I've had static lots sinceabout14 days after game launch.
Ewach
Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:47 pm
#3
StumanKadir wrote:
I was going to post this at the end of the other thread, but at 5 pages long it would just get lost in the static.
Wow! I have nothing to add to that. You did an excellent job of summarizing the problem and exploring the expected outcomes.
I wholeheartedly agree with your first main point - elimintating (or restricting) cross-server lot trading will only give more advantages to those willing/able to pay for multiple accounts.
Pawlin
Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:49 pm
#4
StumanKadir wrote:
(a) the numbers of players who actively participate in large scale trading are often only temporary based (the longest I have ever seen anyone do it is 3 months before burn-out takes hold), are very low in numbers andthe impact they have on economies is at most small, localised and temporary,
What do you base this conclusion on? THere are 20 servers.What data do you have on them? I consider this assumption.
(b) the majority of miners, because of the vagarities of the spawns under their statics, are able to ensure adequate stock across avariety of differing quality resources. Large scale static mining thus ensures a contuningsupply of resources across the field whilst restricive mining will result in sparrow mining the best resources at the expense of the "less glamorous" or less profitable resources. For example, will a restricted miner base choose to mine a hard to get resource such as grindore, at the expense of high-value, high availability resources such as a high CD copper? If you have statics, and have a never ending line of crap resources under them, you will mine the highest spawn of the crap and thus feed the economy with this much needed, yet much maligned rubbish stuff (think walls and storage components here folks).
What is your conclusion here? That static miners serve a purpose by providing grindmaterials? This purpose has a demand so it will be filled. If cross server trades are nerfed then prices of grind materials will probably go up. Then supply will increase to match demand.
(c) a majority of large scale miners mine for either a city or a PA, ...
What data do you base this on? Yet again there are 20 servers with 100K+ players. How many large scale miners do you know? I consider this assumption.
(d) theadding of restrictions to the admin of hoppers or harvestors will impact every crafter, and will impact architects even more so. With our factories taking 2 lots, our house taking 2 lots, and storage space taking a further two spots (a factory, shop and storage house are the minimum in my book or a low-end producing architect to function properly), most single account holding architects could not function in any way, shape or form.
Itwould beimpossible to mine the required quantities of ore, steel, gases, & chems with the remaining 4 lots. A starting player would find it even more impossible as they would not have the income to support buying resources in. The co-ordination between players, some of whom have differing playing habits, play in differing time-zones, etc will make thisequally impossible to manage for any but the most dedicated or hard-core player. Finding non-crafting players who will be available at anytime to drop harvestors, clean out hoppers, etc is a pipe-dream built on a fairytale. If they liked doing these things they would be a crafter, most players hate doing this as - to them at least - its boring and interferes with their gamestyle. Simple as that. To say that this should be the "way things work" is a complete misnomer and completely at odds with reality.
Why does a single account holding architect need cross server lot trading? Is this based on the conclusion that you can't run a business if buying resources? Do you think most single account crafters do lot trades? I don't understand the basis for your conclusion. Or are you assuming that cross server lot trades will make buying materials too expensive?
(e) the reduction in the availability in resources and their resultant increase in prices will automatically price any new starting crafter out of the market.It's all well and good to say "you can charge more for your goods" but if no one is buying, then having a higher price for those goods is moot. In fact, economic history shows that the tightening of an economy often results in inputs having a higher price over time whilst outputs drop in price over time, leading to thinning margins and loss of sales (think the 1930's depression folks). In a market where the inputs are higher and the outputs are lower, thereis an automatic inhibitor to any new starter. So saying that this change is good for new entrants is a load of rubbish. If anything its bad, at worse, its a market barrier that only the very wealthy could break into.
As history has shown us, the demand may be there, but if there is reduced capital to spend of products, products will remain unsold irrespective of their pricing. If the numbers of crafters drops off, then some sections of the economy will remain in boom (such as AS & WS) whilst other more luxury type crafters (such as Tailors, Architects, etc) will collapse.
If supply is reduced by cross server lot nerf then prices will go up. If prices go up then supply will increase. The system will balance itself. If anything the ability of a single power gamer crafter to get large quantities of resources from the mega miners using cross server lot trades allows the mega crafters to build their own Walmarts that keep out the smaller folks. If people are unable to get 2M of ore for 2 cpu whenever they want then it will be a lot harder to put up 1000 heavy harvester deeds. If that kind of thing stops then it will open the door to smaller crafters.
(f) Most existing crafters would be loath to take on new players as apprentices as the market for their goods and services dries up owing to the resultant higher pricesoccuring asa result of the tightening of the player economy, and the scarcity ofcrafters who have managed to remain in their profession. In any ecomonic tightening, the first to get laid off are the trainees and the apprentices.
Huh?
...
You accuse other people of basing the argument for cross server lot nerf as "half-truths or false information". The people arguing for the nerf are doing so based on how they see things and their beliefs about the impact it will have. Thats essentially what you're doing. There is no reason to assume that others are only interested in their own "self-interest and greed" and doing so is unfair.
StumanKadir
Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:30 pm
#5
Pawlin, I am basing this on my own experiences and even headed this post as my own perspective. Maybe it would suit you better if I prefaced it in big bold letters "THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION CONTAINS MY OWN POINT OF VIEW" - would that make you feel better?
So yes, none of this is scientifically attained, and all of the details I have in there is based through reading of the trade boards on all of the servers, through my experiences in dealing with large miners on my own server and the other servers I play on, etc. If I had the time and the resources I suppose that I could graph it all up rather nicely and scientifically, but as I can't, I neither try to portray this as a scientifically accurate view, or state as such.
I have not made this claim and it is personally insulting that you try to portray my posting this way - although I do note that you neatly sidestep any type of rebuttal and instead revert to a personal attack /shrug.
Of course most of what I am saying here is an assumption, with the lack of data that is available to all of us, none of us are in a position to say otherwise. I mean really, are the utterances that you make any more accurate than mine? Is the position that I am taking any less inaccurate or accurate as yours? In a word no.
All we can do is look at the situation based on own own experiences, through the experiences of others whom we have dealt with and what is available in the utterances on other servers boards, and try and draw a conclusion.
That is all that I have done, and instead of trying to address the issues I am raising, you feel the need to instead attack me and call me a hypocrite. All that does is lessen your case and enhance mine.
Message Edited by StumanKadir on 06-28-2004 06:50 PM
lisasdarren
Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:31 am
#6
StumanKadir wrote:
I was going to post this at the end of the other thread, but at 5 pages long it would just get lost in the static.
(d) theadding of restrictions to the admin of hoppers or harvestors will impact every crafter, and will impact architects even more so. With our factories taking 2 lots, our house taking 2 lots, and storage space taking a further two spots (a factory, shop and storage house are the minimum in my book or a low-end producing architect to function properly), most single account holding architects could not function in any way, shape or form.
Itwould beimpossible to mine the required quantities of ore, steel, gases, & chems with the remaining 4 lots. A starting player would find it even more impossible as they would not have the income to support buying resources in. The co-ordination between players, some of whom have differing playing habits, play in differing time-zones, etc will make thisequally impossible to manage for any but the most dedicated or hard-core player. Finding non-crafting players who will be available at anytime to drop harvestors, clean out hoppers, etc is a pipe-dream built on a fairytale. If they liked doing these things they would be a crafter, most players hate doing this as - to them at least - its boring and interferes with their gamestyle. Simple as that. To say that this should be the "way things work" is a complete misnomer and completely at odds with reality.
This is just not true, i see a lot of posts on these boards complaining about how it impossible to craft with only 10 lots, so here are some hard figures to prove it is possible.
Running costs for 10 lots:
- 1 shop / storage facility - 5712
- 1 Structure Factory - 8400
- 6 Heavy Harvesters - 90720
- 1 Vendor - 2520
- Power for all the above (at 1cpu of effective power) - 84000
Total - c. 190000
Assuming your 6 harvesters are on 55% deposits you pull in c. 423000 units of material a week
This is enough to manufacture (for example)
- 10 heavy harvesters
- c. 50 itemsof furniture
Giving you a potential income of:
- 1.3 million from harvesters (@130k each)
- 1.4 million from furniture (assuming you sell itat 10cpu)
Total potential income 2.7 million
Giving you a potential weekly profit of 2.5 million
Now even if you don't make sales of this amount each week, you will still have the assets and so assuming you have customers you will make this money over time.
If you can explain to me how this is not being able to run a business then i would apreciate it, seems like a fine profit to me for a single crafter.
Fueller
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:40 am
#7
Even though it has been allowed and has happened, I doubt that the Devs wanted this to happen. You are given a set of rules to live by, yet some find a "Loop Hold" to challenge the system. Yes you can have those lots on other servers, but the intent was for "Those Servers". Does it bother me that others have static lots? No, not at all..I think they might be a bit greedy, but I don't think any less of them. They have found an ingenious way to monopolize resources.
Nerfing the lots won't bother me in the least, but I can see allot of people getting bent because of it. But, if they had lived by the rules of game play in the first place, This would be a non-issue.
Kixsian
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:49 am
#8
i think the cross server lot trade should stay in i mean if u look at it, it promotes a capitlaistic society, the poeple who have worked at it and have the money to run 60 harvestor fleets prosper, and the people that can run thoose 60 harvestor fleets work hard and build up so that they can soon become that big of a corperation. When u look at Cross server lot trades all it is is out sourceing...
Huntercrom
Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:47 am
#9
I do cross server lot trading myself. With some friends on Intrepid. However, NO harvesters are used in those lot trades.
We set it up for them to come into our city on my main server, all they do is put down a house and declare. Everything else is taken care of. They are just asked to pop in every week or two to ensure that they don't lose their house to low activity or something.
My 2 characters cover houses and factories for them. Nothing more than that. I guess I'm nothing more than a storage bot. BUT, it does open up more lots for them to use FOR their harvesters, and if need be, I can do the same on my server with their characters.
It's just a way to circumvent the lot cap that we currently have in a more efficient manner. We've been doing this for about 6 months now, and it's worked out great.
The reason I'm saying this is, if you think that everyone is in it for the harvesters, we're not. Some of us are trying to make other things happen. If they nerf the cross server lot trades, then they'll have to make sure it doesn't effect what the rest of us are doing to better each sides cause.
lisasdarren
Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:12 am
#10
Huntercrom wrote:
The reason I'm saying this is, if you think that everyone is in it for the harvesters, we're not. Some of us are trying to make other things happen. If they nerf the cross server lot trades, then they'll have to make sure it doesn't effect what the rest of us are doing to better each sides cause.
So what is it you're doing exactly?
You have created a city where many of the houses don't actually have a real owner, thus falsly inflating teh size of your city?
You are holding a space in one of the player city ranks that could be used by a real player city where all of the residents actually play regulalrly on that server?
How exactly are you benefiting anyone but yourself by having these "ghost" residents?
Huntercrom
Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:27 am
#11
There are 5 people that have done this, of those 5, 4 of them are semi-active, only 1 is a weekly log in. The other 4 actually enjoy coming over and doing something with thier character from time to time.
I do the same on their server as well.
It gives us EACH a break from doing the same old thing day in and day out, that it's nice to take a break, spend some time with old friends and go kill things or make things.
So, with the WHOLE picture not really being let out, and I still haven't told you EVERYTHING involved in it, then you realize that it's not always what it appears to be.
They do their weekly log in and log out, didn't tell ya that they do it more than 1x a week though, and I shouldn't have to.
It's not over-inflating a city, it's trying to get some old friends from other games that are on different servers, together and spend some time together in one place or another.
It works for us.
EDIT: I'm active, to a degree on 3 different servers, plus Test Center as well. I don't have to put a million hours of play on the same server to enjoy my game. The fact that they give us the ability to choose multiple servers to play on is something I enjoy. The fact that I have 2 characters per server is something else I enjoy. It gives me multiple options without changing templates on anything I already have in place.
Message Edited by Huntercrom on 06-28-2004 10:31 AM
Cafa
Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:00 am
#12
Fueller wrote:
Even though it has been allowed and has happened, I doubt that the Devs wanted this to happen. You are given a set of rules to live by, yet some find a "Loop Hold" to challenge the system. Yes you can have those lots on other servers, but the intent was for "Those Servers". Does it bother me that others have static lots? No, not at all..I think they might be a bit greedy, but I don't think any less of them. They have found an ingenious way to monopolize resources.
Nerfing the lots won't bother me in the least, but I can see allot of people getting bent because of it. But, if they had lived by the rules of game play in the first place, This would be a non-issue.
Show me a written rule, anywhere, where the practice is disallowed? I have plenty of commentary in person from CSRs saying it is perfectly legal.
Fivo Asia
Cafa
Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:06 am
#13
lisasdarren wrote:
[snip]
This is just not true, i see a lot of posts on these boards complaining about how it impossible to craft with only 10 lots, so here are some hard figures to prove it is possible.
Running costs for 10 lots:
- 1 shop / storage facility - 5712
- 1 Structure Factory - 8400
- 6 Heavy Harvesters - 90720
- 1 Vendor - 2520
- Power for all the above (at 1cpu of effective power) - 84000
Total - c. 190000
Assuming your 6 harvesters are on 55% deposits you pull in c. 423000 units of material a week
This is enough to manufacture (for example)
- 10 heavy harvesters
- c. 50 itemsof furniture
Giving you a potential income of:
- 1.3 million from harvesters (@130k each)
- 1.4 million from furniture (assuming you sell itat 10cpu)
Total potential income 2.7 million
Giving you a potential weekly profit of 2.5 million
Now even if you don't make sales of this amount each week, you will still have the assets and so assuming you have customers you will make this money over time.
If you can explain to me how this is not being able to run a business then i would apreciate it, seems like a fine profit to me for a single crafter.
Your supposition, as with most of these perfect math analogies, does not take into consideration any swap or activity OTHER than crafting. In fact, by your own analogy you have shown that you believe no one should aspire to do better than thhis formula, in my opinion.
You provide no room for archiving resources in quantity. You provide no room for components storage, unless you demand they only make one crate at a time. You show costs based upon some perfect world because power sells for far more than that on Tempest and we (supposedly) have one of the more stable economies.
Heaven forbid that an architect would want a nicely furnished house or long-term storage.
Fivo Asia
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