Architect Archive

Thread: Alternatives to Experimentation Changes

Jnath
Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:27 am
#1

Ok lemme get the ball rolling with category #1 (although it may cross into #2)....


In need of some serious recovery from the holo-grinders and other things, but its easy to blame holo-grinders, the SWG economy needs a wider variety of crafted goods (see i told you #2 would come in). As it is, the only stuff is the uber stuff and that sets a high price with a premium often added on top because the crafter thinks "i am the L33T weapon/armor/whateversmith". This is not the only or overriding problem; however, it is holding back the economy from really getting going. Also there is an innate problem in any mmorpg, that being the lack of information. I really dont know how to solve something like this. The dev's did very well with vendors, barking adds, registering vendors on the map, etc. But unless people use the /find functions or really delve deep into the planetary map they will not be able to find the vendor they are looking for. This lack of information is a two edged sword, crafters must be honest (meaning don't sell your cdef rifle on the bazaar for 6000 and change the name at creation to Laser Rifle 66-297 dmg) but buyers must be wary and look at the details. Shoot my econ fuse burned out, but hopefully this can get a discussion going....ill be back after i heal my mind wounds from too much thinking.





Jenar
Master Droid Engineer
Director - Cabal of the Toothy Maw
Cult of Sarlacc (Starsider)

"It's the accumulation of small pinpricks over time that causes one to bleed to death" -- Shian Tavkin, Master Droid Engineer/Master Artisan
Pawlin
Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:47 am
#2

Before we start figuring out solutions, we need to define the problem being solved. SOE didn't really do that IMHO.


So what is the problem?


This is where it has to be specific. Chrysalide said that the game economy is in "poor shape". But does that mean that there is rampant inflation? Stagnation? Unemployment? What? How is the economy broken specifically?


They also said: "Our main concern centered around the fact that with most master crafters all making the best equipment possible, there is very little variety on the market."


So why is that a problem really? What does that do? The implications of that aren't totally clear to me.


Problem solving starts with a clear and specific definition of the problem you are trying to solve.






Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ

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** Please refer to Elyssa's answer
Redguard
Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:23 pm
#3





Since G just posted the plan to implement experimentation changes has been halted it's time the player base thought of some ways to add diversity into crafting. I was not in favor of this particular change but something is needed to create diversity of product. I can understand why the dev team was trying to make the change but there must be other alternatives. Many of us are going to count this as a victory but it's best we start comming up with acceptable ideas that we all can live with.


This post is intended to gather up alot of the ideas discussed in the Test thread regarding the experimentation changes and have a discussion unencumbered by the fear of the nerf it would have become. We shouldexplore some of the ideas and provide some insight as to howthe changes they propose could havesome positiveaffects to SWG.Lets do this people and provide an opportunity for us to give something back to the game that the dev team can work with and we can deal with.


Obvious issues such as Hologrinding,duping/exploits, prenerf items have had a problematic affect upon the games economy. While we must learn to live with the legacy of past mistakes we need to also lean to live with progressive changes. We need to also face the facts that not all changes are going to be popular and SOME balance adjustments will be required.


Lets break it down into 3 categories:


1. Economic Improvements: What can be done to fix the economy of SWG?


2. Crafting Improvements: What changes can be made to create more diversity of product?


3. Generic Improvements: What can be done to SWG to make game play more enjoyable?




Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.
Redguard
Tue Mar 16, 2004 1:28 pm
#4



Since G just posted the plan to implement experimentation changes has been halted it's time the player base thought of some ways to add diversity into crafting. I was not in favor of this particular change but something is needed to create diversity of product. I can understand why the dev team was trying to make the change but there must be other alternatives. Many of us are going to count this as a victory but it's best we start comming up with acceptable ideas that we all can live with.


This post is intended to gather up alot of the ideas discussed in the Test thread regarding the experimentation changes and have a discussion unencumbered by the fear of the nerf it would have become. We shouldexplore some of the ideas and provide some insight as to howthe changes they propose could havesome positiveaffects to SWG.Lets do this people and provide an opportunity for us to give something back to the game that the dev team can work with and we can deal with.


Obvious issues such as Hologrinding,duping/exploits, prenerf items have had a problematic affect upon the games economy. While we must learn to live with the legacy of past mistakes we need to also lean to live with progressive changes. We need to also face the facts that not all changes are going to be popular and SOME balance adjustments will be required.


Lets break it down into 3 categories:


1. Economic Improvements: What can be done to fix the economy of SWG?


2. Crafting Improvements: What changes can be made to create more diversity of product?


3. Generic Improvements: What can be done to SWG to make game play more enjoyable?





Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.
Alse
Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:27 pm
#5

there needs to be a Architect quest, say for a special house or a special harvestor. Heck maybe even the right to build on Dath or Yavin through the quest reward.



Amen~Ra
"All Your Base Are Belong to Us"

ZenDragonMLS
Tue Mar 16, 2004 10:11 pm
#6



Pawlin wrote:

Before we start figuring out solutions, we need to define the problem being solved. SOE didn't really do that IMHO.

So what is the problem?

This is where it has to be specific. Chrysalide said that the game economy is in "poor shape". But does that mean that there is rampant inflation? Stagnation? Unemployment? What? How is the economy broken specifically?

They also said: "Our main concern centered around the fact that with most master crafters all making the best equipment possible, there is very little variety on the market."

So why is that a problem really? What does that do? The implications of that aren't totally clear to me.

Problem solving starts with a clear and specific definition of the problem you are trying to solve.






Sorry Pawlin, this just makes too much sense. I'm sure that that they are well beyond Engineering Problem Solving 101 and have no need for things like requirements statements, goals, or metrics.



Chilastra: Mikka R'zrPoint, Spy (Master Ranger/Master Pistoleer)
Chilastra: Zalle RazorPoint, Trader:Engineer (Master Architect, Master DE, Master Shipwright) - vendors just north of Theed at -3858 6181
Test Center: Rikka R'zrPoint, Master Artisan, Master Architect - showroom just south of Theed at -5370, 3139

Lyrizza
Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:57 am
#7

My major annoyance with being a crafting character has more to do with the extremely poor system of buying and selling the game uses. You can spend hours going from vendor to vendor to find one crafted item and never find it. Point in case, before I was an Architect, I wanted to buy a small generic house style 2, floor plan 2. Five hours later, 30 vendors later, and 2 planets later I gave up my search and took up the architect profession and was able to make my own house 2 days later. Empty vendors, not knowing how well they are stocked before you spend 20 minutes to drive there... It is no wonder that established crafters do well and new ones never get a chance, who wants to drive around for 4 hours to maybe save 20k, assuming you do actually find it? Cough up the 20k and go to the guy that always has what you want, even if he is higher priced than others might be, if they have it in stock. We need a better way for the customers to know what we have.


And the galaxy trade forums.....I hate them. I see absolutely no reason why we don't have a good auction system IN GAME. The galaxy trade forum is undepenable, inaccurate and incredibly frustrating to use. Just because you win the auction in the forum doesn't mean a thing (as I have found out). Finding the person auctioning it is just as hard as wining the auction, and even though you win the auction on the forum, someone might have sent and ingame email and beat your bid hours after the auction was suppose to end, yet the seller sells it to the other person. It is an ugly system, and the worst thing about it in my mind is : It isn't IN GAME. We should have a system that does this for us in game, having it on a forum on the website does not make itgameplay or any kind of meaningful player interaction. It is a horrible system for dealing with how players sell expensive items. Yet the galaxy forums are the only place to get rare loots, and speciality crafted items. The trade forums are an attempt to offer players the ability to sell items they can't on the bazaar, without everyone having to check every vendor in the galaxy everyday. We should be able to do this in game, It is lame that we have to leave SWG to look at auctions for SWG. This should all be apart of the game economy. Auctions and selling are what makes an ecomony move, grow, expand.Yet we have such a strict way of selling that it makes it harder to get your item sold as it did to craft it


Solution:

Step#1 be able to search for items ata public vendor that lists everything for sale on all vendors. Price need not be listed, if they are that interested they can drive to you and see, however at least they know you have it for sale.You could pay an extra fee per item to have the item listed on the world vendor, so perhaps not every little 5 credit item is listed, not everything would be valuable enough to list, maybe 1% of the price you are selling it for with a minium of 150 credits. This would not be the bazaar, that would still work the same as usual, and players would have to go to the vendor to purchase it, but atleast they would know it was there and worth thier time to go get it. Tomake it easy to set up and not todata consuming to maintian,I would be happy with just the item name, not even the decription with all the stats and the price. Perhaps a short 20-30 letter description from the player. I would love to look up "repulic blaster" and see 5 vendors on tat that were currently selling it and be able to drive to those 5 and pick which one had the best stats for the price I wanted to pay. Much better than spending 5 hours going to 30 vendors to find half of them are empty, anda quarterof them don't have it stocked.


Step 2: Being able to place auctions on our vendor and have them listed in the same type of system as above. With no cap at the top, unless seller puts one there to encourage a buyout. This would elimate the trade forum completely and it would allow the players to pick it up at the seller's vendor, but at the buyer's convience. Once you havewon the auction, it goes off the auction page and you can now pick it up from the vendor (waypoint enclosed in email, of course) and only you can pick it up. All automated, so once it reaches the time on the auction, it does this automatically. Once the auction has ended, the seller can't get the item back, it is like someone has bought something from thier vendor but hasn't retrieved it.


There isn't enough buying and selling going on in this game, mainly because it is such a pain to do. Trade forums, searching the bazaar, vendor shopping, empty vendors, vendors don't have what you are looking for,....no matter how you look at it, it isn't fun. They put in a great crafting system, and then a terrible way to sell it. Buying and selling is what makes an economy strong, not inventory sitting on vendors becuase no one knows it is there to buy.




Anyway, that is my 2 credits worth.


R2...hand me that motivator, I was going to sell it on the bazaar, but I can't overide the price limit that bestine has set on the bazaar, and I can't find the "trade forums" anywhere in bestine, so I think i will just go stand at the bestine starport and yell every 5 seconds till someone buys it.
Galaxyburst
Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:20 am
#8






Redguard wrote:



Since G just posted the plan to implement experimentation changes has been halted it's time the player base thought of some ways to add diversity into crafting. I was not in favor of this particular change but something is needed to create diversity of product. I can understand why the dev team was trying to make the change but there must be other alternatives. Many of us are going to count this as a victory but it's best we start comming up with acceptable ideas that we all can live with.


This post is intended to gather up alot of the ideas discussed in the Test thread regarding the experimentation changes and have a discussion unencumbered by the fear of the nerf it would have become. We shouldexplore some of the ideas and provide some insight as to howthe changes they propose could havesome positiveaffects to SWG.Lets do this people and provide an opportunity for us to give something back to the game that the dev team can work with and we can deal with.


Obvious issues such as Hologrinding,duping/exploits, prenerf items have had a problematic affect upon the games economy. While we must learn to live with the legacy of past mistakes we need to also lean to live with progressive changes. We need to also face the facts that not all changes are going to be popular and SOME balance adjustments will be required.


Lets break it down into 3 categories:


1. Economic Improvements: What can be done to fix the economy of SWG?


2. Crafting Improvements: What changes can be made to create more diversity of product?


3. Generic Improvements: What can be done to SWG to make game play more enjoyable?










Regarding #1,


A number of people suggested to introduce (back) the miner and farmer who can enhance lower grade resources into top of the line. This will lesten the economy constraint of rare resources and improve competition. That is a good idea. Or they (the dev) could just make rare resources common wich have the positive side effect of less hoarding which in turn will lesten the burden of the database.Also adding more usefull schematics for every low crafter is imo a good decision. Improving the interdependency between master and lower crafter is another good idea.


Galaxyburst






------------------------------------
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WIndows XP.
GogoDodo
Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:21 am
#9

I think one of the reasons that crafters make the best items possible is that all the high end items overshadow the lower level ones.


Why use a medium harvestor when a heavy is faster with more storage for just a little more cost and energy? No real benifit to using a medium.


The only reason I have ever had to use a personal mineral extractor was that the resource i wanted was on the side of a hill and only a personal would fit. If the devs can give us good, tangable reasons for using different sizes of harvestors then i could see that increasing the market.


Beyond that giving us a larger variety of structures for sale. We have probably the same amount of schematics as any other profession, but how many Tat city halls can an architect possible sell?


There is no limit on the number of guns or food i can own and use, yet there is a strict limit on the number of structures i can place.



G





Gogo T. Dodo
Master Architect, Master Artisan, Master Merchant
EmGo Corporation - Chairman and Chief Resource Monkey
Kor Vella, Corellia; Trinity City, Naboo
Starsider
Redguard
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:18 pm
#10

Jnath


I look at some of my schems at times and wonder if there is any point to having chance cubes and dice. Shouln't these slots be taken up by something useful? There are a number of practical ideas that could be used as schematics but we get bird cages and creature habitats. Even a more effective flashlight would make me happy. Obviously this suggests that there is an issue with the schematic line. There needs to be more diversity of product.





Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.
Redguard
Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:38 pm
#11

Pawlin,


Take an objective look at your profession and try to come up with something that you don't like or even do like. I'm not trying to generate rhetoric. I'm trying to generate ideas that we all can live with. At some point they will want to take a second look at crafting and implement changes for balance sake. I'll be the first to admit that architect is not an area that I'm all that familiar with. What I do know is that the harvesters you folks make are the driving engine to the games economy. No resources means no crafting unless we all want to sample ourselves to death.





Given the choice between style over substance. I'll take a sandwich.
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