Architect Archive

Good morning all!

I recently had a heated conversation with ZenDragon on Wanderhome about the benefits of buying power, and actually dropping fusions generators for self suffience.. While I will agree that the numbers work out for a mature resource dealer to run BER13 heavies and buy power bulk, my standpoint is that of a newer resource dealer, with limited resources for hardware needs to find his own power. I will try to back both points as best as I can, and I am using the following assumpitions;

30 lots are available.
Average resource density is 50% as most 20+ lots are actually rented.
PE of the radios is 500.

Okay.. The main formula I am using for determining lot utilization for power vs. harvesters is...

24*power rate(30-x)=(1440*BER*Percentage)X

For the BER10 harvesters, and Fusion 14's, where X is the number of fusion generators.

24*50(30-X)=(1440*14*.5)X
1200(30-X)=10080X
36000 - 1200X=10080X
36000=11280X
2.8125=X

So I would need 3 Fusion generators to run my harvesters, and have a very small surplus. Now if I ran those three extra lots as MED BER10 Minerals, I would gain 21600 units of resources over what I would normally produce, but have to buy 36,000 units of power.. So on a static farm, I would have to expect to sell 2.5 CPU on whatever I farmed, and have to hunt down a power dealer that sold power at 1.5Cpu.

As I would not trust my prized fusions to a lot tennant I didn't trust explicitly, I have the option of moving the around, to try and find a higher percentage. I have been lucky enough to usually find a spot of 80%, but I will call the low end at 70%, and re-work for surplus power..

1440*14*.7=42336
Power used-32400
Net power =9936
@1.5Cpu =14904
----------------

So I walk away with an extra 10K in radios.. or the work of 1.38 Ber10 Harvesters sitting on a 50% resources. For free.

Now for the heavies...

24*75(30-x)=(1440*14*.5)X
1800(30-x)=10080X
54000-1800X=10080X
54000=11880X
4.545=X

Now I have a much higher load on the Fusion generators.. I need to run five of them just to keep up with the harvesters, but I have a little extra.. 4581.81 units per day. To find out how much I am losing on actual resource production...

1440*5*13*.5 = 46800 units that BER13 heavies would pull out of the ground.
Total power consumption for all the harvsters 54000 units. @ 1.5Cpu = 81000
(because I am cheap.. Mainenance difference of 3600 per day + 3600
Total in expense for these harvesters is now 84,600 credits per day over running the three fusions, or 1.56Cr / unit. If I am stuck on ore, this is the price most architects pay for Lg Ore in bulk.. And I am just breaking even..

There are some holes in my math, like what the difference would be if I shifted the harvesters the same way I shifted the fusions.. But I have expended enough brain sweat on the subject for now..

By the time you can afford to spend the 4.5M on all those pretty BER13 heavies, you should be able to affor the contracts for radios at 1CP in lots of a million. But alas, I am but a poor newbie resource dealer have barely the funds to scrap together a fleet of BER10's (27BER10 @ 30K 810K into equip) and just a few fusions (3 @ 150K, 450K).. Helps me stay competitive. The big guy dredges in 280K resources per day, and my 195K resources per day, without having to support my power dealer..

Thanks!
Naipac, The N00b Resource dealer on Wanderhome

I think the key thing that matters to me is the convenience. If power is easier to buy than mine or vice versa then that certainly plays an important factor.

The math is all based on the underlying assumptions. So in a different situation it might work out better to buy power than your situation describes.

* You quote 50% for your harvesting densities. If that number was 70% then you're figures would change a lot.

* You say PE = 500. But thats the minimum I've seen and the average is closer to 750.

* I pay 1 cpu for power, you seem to assume 1.5 cpu. That number depends on the market.

* Sounds like you are working with low cpu grind stuff. If someone is dealing in high quality materials then it would probably be more advantagous for them to buy power.

Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ
Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain

** Please refer to Elyssa's answer

Hey... what a second... (looks at vendor full of fusion deeds). No I'm wrong. Scratch all that. Everyone should always definitely mine their own fusion power.

Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ
Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain

** Please refer to Elyssa's answer

Lol.. I am a bulk seller.. I try to sell everything cheap, and in bulk at 2.5CPU.. And tend to work a lot of deals on lot sales of over 100K units.. As I am a static farmer on my rented lots, I dont have a whole lot of choice on the resources I mine on the rented lots.. If I have a choice of 85% grind steel, or 12% Good LG ore, chances are I will go with the 85% steel.. Some weeks the best I have is a 30% source of copper.. It is not always a fun gamble, but it works.. Sometimes.. (anyone in the market for a million units of OQ 8 Copper?)

Agreed.. My percentages are low, but by being a little conservative, I am mitigating risk. Class I radio starts at 500PE. A good class 7 severely skews the resutls.

And us little guys cant afford to buy huge lots of radios.. It cuts into out operating expenses... I have to pay an average price of 1.5CPU on power.. Sigh.. (siliently wishes for a power benefactor)

And hey.. Throw those fusions at me.. If the fusion fairy leaves them under my pillow, I will be sure to make good use of them...

Bria just got a great spawn of steel with mid-high 900's in UT (975), HR (999), DR and SR ... and, was lucky to find an 80% spawn to place 7 harvesters (most I can drop).

No way, no matter the math, would I sacrafice 1 or 2 lots to mine this steelfor fusion- even at 1.5 cpu.

I run 28 harvesters, 6 of them are power. I have 4 wind statics and the 2 fusions are movable. I found that wind statics are always getting stuff while radios are not so they give me backbone power... 2 Fusions give me all I need to run stuff and I never place them of a less then 70% spot. Ever! I lost 6 harvesters that could be harvesting, Ok by me as they are loaned, and even with 11% wind you are paying 0,99 cpu per unit of power.. and 11% in very unluck... considering that twice a month I move them to a 80% spot I always have a couple of hundred K of extra power and I reduce the number of stuff I'm getting at 30%... No one except grinder, a dying breed, smugglers and furniture making architects will buy tottaly crap resources and smuggler have parties with 45K and furniture isn't exactly the big resource expenditure either...

After all this I prefer to extract my own power and sometines even sell some.

Arianrhod

Visit Pookie Mall, Naboo - Theed (-4494 , 3164) 1000m out of theed.
We Sell All Architect goods, Artisan items, Smuggler Goods, We have 2 richly stocked Loot vendors and our UNIQUE all furniture vendor both crafted and looted furniture!

Architects consume huge quantities of grind quality materials. A heavy mineral takes about 25k of resources to make and 23-24k of those are grind quality. All housing can be made with 100% grind quality materials.

Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ
Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain

** Please refer to Elyssa's answer

Lets all not forget the infamous brick.. 200 junk LG ore, and 50 Junk metal.. Oh.. and the Wall section.. 300 junk metal, and another 200 junk LG ore.. Total? 3000 Jankie crapy OQ1 Sr1 UT1 material..

*Smile*

Thanks for posting this - I think it's a great discussion.

Based on the conversation, I went back to my harvester spreadsheet and created a new sheet for a "complex mix". The model I have is that you have some number of dynamic lots and some number of static lots. For dynamic you have some mix of fusions and harvesters. For static you have (perhaps) a mix of two types of harvesters. So the model provides for some mix of:

Dynamic Fusion, Dynamic Harvester1, Static Harvester2, Static Harvester3

Each of those has a BER, type (e.g., medium, heavy), expected concentration, and resource sales price.

So, someone with 10 dynamic lots and 20 static lots might put up 3 fusions and 7 heavies on their dynamic lots and 20 mediums on their static lots. They might expect to see an average concentration of 50% on their static lots but 70% on their dynamic lots (since they move them around). They might expect go get 1.5 cpu from the statics, but 2.5 cpu from the dynamics, since they have the freedom to choose what they are harvesting.

So, I modeled the general scenario that gravitron_sales has. He has 10 dynamic lots and 20 static lots. Right now he has all medium harvesters. The maintanence costs for the dynamic lots include redeeding once a week and the static lots don't. Assume Radioactive power sells for 1.5 cpu (high from what I've seen) and has an average PE of 750. Assume selling all resources for 1.5 cpu (low for the dynamic lots I think), as well as selling the surplus power. Assume 70% concentration for the Radioactive and 50% for the harvesters (low for the dynamic lots I think). I have a place in the model for "lot rental" but I used zero for this scenario.

Usinga mix of 2 fusions, 8 BER10 mediums on his dynamic lots and 20 BER10 mediums on his static lots, he gets a profit (after all sales and operating costs) of 263,636 credits per day. If he buys his power and uses those 2 other dynamic lots for harvesters, then he gets a profit of 240,510 a day. So clearly he should run his own fusions, right?

Maybe. I think that there are some overly conservative model assumptions, mostly having to do with the dynamic lots. I think that dynamic lots are more likely to have both higher concentrations and higher quality resources than static lots. If we just take the dynamic lots to 70% concentration (low for everything except ore) and 2 cpu (low in my experience), then the two scenarios play out differently. When he runs 2 fusions of his own, his daily profit is 338,526. If he buys power instead and runs 2 more dynamic harvesters, he gets 334,110 of daily profit. So in that case it is pretty much a wash from an operating cost perspective. I'd make the same comment others have made - one of the advantages of buying power is that you have one less resource to survey for, keep track of, and one less place to go set up and tear down.

If you stay with mediums on the static lots (to reduce your capital risk in case one of the lot holders deletes their character, for example) but move up to heavies on your dynamic lots, then the picture changes again. Keeping the 70% concentration and 2 cpu assumptions and putting out 3 fusions and7 heavies on the dynamic lots and keeping the 20 mediums on the static, you have a daily profit of 372,332. Buying power so you have 10 dynamic heavies will give you a daily profit of 379,250. Still basically a wash, but the increased pulling power of the heavies coupled with higher concentration / resource price of the dynamic lots is making buying your power more and more attractive.

I think that in general, the arguement for buying power goes something like this: we each have some dynamic lots and static lots. It doesn't make sense (for a variety of reasons) to run fusions on our static lots, so they can only go on the dynamic lots. But it is the dynamic lots where we have the greatest sustained profit potential because we get to choose (in general)a much more optimal concentration and resource price for our harvesters. So that says that we want to maximize the number of dynamic lots that we use for actual resources as opposed to power generators.

BTW - given this analysis, you might wonder why people run "power" companies. The basic reason I think is that the market for power is fairly stable and they only need to focus on a single resource and single type of equipment. They get a nice steady income stream and it is definately profitable.

Chilastra: Mikka R'zrPoint, Spy (Master Ranger/Master Pistoleer)
Chilastra: Zalle RazorPoint, Trader:Engineer (Master Architect, Master DE, Master Shipwright) - vendors just north of Theed at -3858 6181
Test Center: Rikka R'zrPoint, Master Artisan, Master Architect - showroom just south of Theed at -5370, 3139

I think you should always extract with heavies, dynamic harvesters I mean, and never ever sell at less than 3cpu. Unless of course you sell now for less to gain a custumer or a favor that you hope will see a return... I try to work with orders so I'm always getting High quality stuff, so 3cpu is a good price. I don't even have a resources vendor, I just consume what I don't sell and am building a stash of very good resources to sell later on. For my less than dynamic harvesters I try to get stuff I know is needed at grind quality, ore, steel... copper some....

About a power company, I think it's great biz. You sell cheap and a lot. You can use the new maintenace droids and you only have to care about 1 resource... If I could get regular custumers I'd do it... But once again let's see what changes the new no-grind era brings...

Arianrhod

Visit Pookie Mall, Naboo - Theed (-4494 , 3164) 1000m out of theed.
We Sell All Architect goods, Artisan items, Smuggler Goods, We have 2 richly stocked Loot vendors and our UNIQUE all furniture vendor both crafted and looted furniture!