Architect Archive
Thread: PB&J Sandwiches (or how the Devs change universal constants)
What would happen if one day God (or whoever you believe in) decided the recipie for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches needed to change? Instead of two slices of bread, peanut butter, and jelly the recipie changes one day to two slices of bread, vegemite, and jelly.
Something similar seems to be happening with harvesters -- again. First, harvesters went from being idential based on type (personal, medium, heavy) to where experimentation suddenly mattered. Not just that, but harvesters crafted BEFORE the change were affected to take experimentation and materials into account. Most Architects found "old" harvesters weren't as good as "new" harvesters and this brought mixed results where some Architects were happy about hoards of people wanting "new" (better) harvesters, while other Architects were upset about their previously made harvesters effectively being made obsolete.
The changes going into the upcoming update are worse:
"There are two new components: Heavy Harvesting Mechanism and Turbo Fluidic Drilling Pump Unit, now used in heavy harvesters."
"The 'experimental efficiency' property of structure components no longer just relies on the Unit Toughness of your crafting resources. Make sure you check what contributes to a good efficiency for harvesters."
There is a lot that isn't said here so I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but this raises some interesting questions:
1) Will existing harvesters in game be affected by these (and any other) changes to experimentation?
2) GreenMarine mentioned previously that there were plans to cap the extraction rate (particular with fusion reactors). Was this missed in the patch notes, or is it just not being done?
3) What happens to components Architects have already made in their factories for building heavy harvesters? Will they be changed automatically into their new forms on patch day as part of the update or will two slices of bread, peanut butter, and jelly no longer make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?
Online games NEED to be dynamic to continue to be fun for people and balance is something the Devs will be chasing until the day the servers are shut down for the last time. That said, on Live servers, care needs to be taken to ensure that the rug isn't being pulled out from under players' hard work in game. Sometimes, changes that hurt players (aka a nerf) is needed, but care needs to be taken to at least attempt to mitigate the effect or at least the perception.
While it is debatable, SOE made great strides with change in EQ. "Deluxe Sewing Kits" were created for players with "Large Sewing Kits" to deal with an imbalance and the "old" version was no longer available in game from that point. Also, "pending lore" tags were added to items that were planned to be affected in upcoming patches. EQ is NOT SWG, but we could still use some better strategies:
- With adding experimentation to harvesters, what would have been nice is to assign an average to above average experimentation values to them regardless of the materials or items that created the harvester initially (unless the original was better). This would have the effect of not punishing Architects (and non-Architects who paid lots of credits for the harvesters) for not having used incredible resources and experimentation on harvesters that didn't need it.
- With changing the recipie for schematics, change all "fludic drilling pumps", for example, to the new "turbo fludic drilling pumps". Again, this would have the effect of not punishing Architects for having created these items prior to the update for building heavy harvesters (I personally just did a factory run of 50 fludic drilling pumps in my factory, which I won't be able to use over the next week).
Beta is long since over and the Devs need to take care to not be changing Live servers as if we were still in Beta. Pulling the rug out from under Beta Testers is expected, but not on Live servers. These changes have the potential of hurting Architects as well as players who have purchased harvesters in the short term and that aggrivation could be mitigated with some thought.
/ disagree
I want them to promate changes that make the game better, things that change the nature and complexity of the classes, the short term pain is nothing compared to the long term gain.
MMRPG's are evolving creations, things are not set in stone upon release, and I am glad they arent. Becasue they have the freedom to make changes that make it a better game long term.
I'm just a little disappointed in how the changes are being implemented.
Tstorm wrote:
The changes going into the upcoming update are worse:
"There are two new components: Heavy Harvesting Mechanism and Turbo Fluidic Drilling Pump Unit, now used in heavy harvesters."
"The 'experimental efficiency' property of structure components no longer just relies on the Unit Toughness of your crafting resources. Make sure you check what contributes to a good efficiency for harvesters."
There is a lot that isn't said here so I don't want to jump to any conclusions, but this raises some interesting questions:
1) Will existing harvesters in game be affected by these (and any other) changes to experimentation?
2) GreenMarine mentioned previously that there were plans to cap the extraction rate (particular with fusion reactors). Was this missed in the patch notes, or is it just not being done?
3) What happens to components Architects have already made in their factories for building heavy harvesters? Will they be changed automatically into their new forms on patch day as part of the update or will two slices of bread, peanut butter, and jelly no longer make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?
Online games NEED to be dynamic to continue to be fun for people and balance is something the Devs will be chasing until the day the servers are shut down for the last time. That said, on Live servers, care needs to be taken to ensure that the rug isn't being pulled out from under players' hard work in game. Sometimes, changes that hurt players (aka a nerf) is needed, but care needs to be taken to at least attempt to mitigate the effect or at least the perception.
While it is debatable, SOE made great strides with change in EQ. "Deluxe Sewing Kits" were created for players with "Large Sewing Kits" to deal with an imbalance and the "old" version was no longer available in game from that point. Also, "pending lore" tags were added to items that were planned to be affected in upcoming patches. EQ is NOT SWG, but we could still use some better strategies:
- With adding experimentation to harvesters, what would have been nice is to assign an average to above average experimentation values to them regardless of the materials or items that created the harvester initially (unless the original was better). This would have the effect of not punishing Architects (and non-Architects who paid lots of credits for the harvesters) for not having used incredible resources and experimentation on harvesters that didn't need it.
- With changing the recipie for schematics, change all "fludic drilling pumps", for example, to the new "turbo fludic drilling pumps". Again, this would have the effect of not punishing Architects for having created these items prior to the update for building heavy harvesters (I personally just did a factory run of 50 fludic drilling pumps in my factory, which I won't be able to use over the next week).
I like the changes. It gives us a way to differentiate our products. And to throw out an analogy....the very first automobiles had steam engines....not anymore...the recipe changed. And is starting to change again, as many cars are beginning to use hybrid/alternative fuel motors.
The old style FDPU's and HM's will still be used in mediums, so they will not go to waste. There is no change to the Heavy Mineral schem or components...other than the new resource stats needed for experimentation that hits everything in the Installations tree and thensome. As for back-dating the experiment values on those already made, I dont know. Hopefully they leave EVERYTHING that is already made as it is, and only apply the changes to newly made stuff.
As for the way the previous retro-changes were done...I for the most part agree with it. Dont understand how some of my Solar deeds on my vendor could have possibly come up with extraction rates of 5 and hoppers that hold 1600...but oh well. All the heavies and mediumsare, at a minimum, no worse than pre-patch. Many are better than minimum, some fusion are still better than is possible now. And I did not pay special attention to resources/experimentation before...though I would try to get what I could...just without going to any extra effort for it.
I believe that they figured out that they do not need to put an artificial cap on fusions, as with the new method of experimenting, they do not go above 17 (in live), and to go higher than that on test, you pay a hefty fee in maintenence increases.
The EQ reference....Deluxe Sewing Kits were taken out because tailors whined about no longer having any demand for 10 slot backpacks...because you could buy 10 slot sewing kits for 1pp and change from a vendor one zone away from a wiz/druid port...in a perfectly safe city no less. They left 10 slot deluxe tool boxes in, available from a gnome in the middle of one of the largest zones in EQ...and also agro mobs that wander through that the gnomes will not help with, even if you are max all to them. They then put more vendors with those toolboxes in PoK...the crossroads of the game after PoP came out, also perfectly safe. Back to the Sewing kits though....they were put in to allow tailors to carry around a kit in which they could make the 9 component combines,which showed up with Velious. When they took them off the vendor...they never deleted the ones already in game...I still have a bunch, if my account is still active. They added looms to many cities so the tailors could still make those recipes, if they did not already have a Deluxe Sewing Kit...
...All of which is to say...SOE (nee Verant)has had to backtrack on changes it has made with both games, and often was not consistent with those changes. It appears to me that much of this industry is trial and error....give them time, hopefully they will get it right...and some of the devs/reps do seem to listen to us, and apply those ideas/concerns into the plan.