CUEmu - Thread Posts

ievb4fun

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:24 pm

Ok, let me get this straight... after you experimented up to the minimum efficiency neededfor BER 13, you started to experiment on hopper size (something all of us risk takers do

)

Then even if you got a success on hopper size, it would RAISE complexity AND possibly lower you from a BER 13 to a BER 12?

MIGO
Master Architect - Gorath Server
Bestine' Harvesters - We'll beat any Vendor's Price
(-1880 -3930 SW of Bestine on Tatooine)

Aureman

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:34 pm

#2

You got it right.... That is why I believee complexity to be a factor in BER, and as Complexity grows, BER dimishes.

Try it for yourself.... you have to play around with the resources to get JUST over the required experimentation for the max BER. It may take a while since successes vary in what they give you in increased efficiency. And don't go by %... that is misleading as heck.... too many underlying variables go into that calculation. just go by ' i just put one point into experimentation for efficiency and that bumpoed me up' and then experiment on storage one point at a time to get the most complexity boost. It will take a little while and may not reproduce itself every time. As the mathmatically we are looking at a limit condition with a threshold value and neither are numerically visible.

-Joska

ievb4fun

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:36 pm

#3

Ok, just made a schematic for a Heavy Flora BER 13. When i hit BER 13 (82% in this case) the Complexity was 35, after I put my final 2 points in Hopper Size (with a Great Success), the Complexity rose to 36. I have never even paid much attention to the Complexity before, but maybe you are on to something.

MIGO
Master Architect - Gorath Server
Bestine' Harvesters - We'll beat any Vendor's Price
(-1880 -3930 SW of Bestine on Tatooine)

LadyGrey

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:49 pm

#4

Actually, that would explain something I have noticed when running wound pack B's through a factory. The higher quality ones (which got an amazing success on final assembly) take longer to make than the great success ones. I believe factory time is based partly on complexity, which is being affected by experimentation.

Nice insight on this.

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LadyGrey

Don't let the negative AFKophobes get you down. Play the game however you want.

Is the beta testing almost over for this game?

Aureman

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:54 pm

#5

If you really want to test it, do not take BER to the max, just take it up until you get an increase in BER. And then experiment in storage one point at a time and see if BER falls. This way you will have a larger growth in points of complexity. (also experiment in efficiency one point at a time to not go over to far in BER and increase complexity the most i can be.)

Note: this does not mathmatically work to disprove the theory as there may be other factory that cause diversion at higher efficiency or experimentation that may not be overcome at he lower levels. translation: we're still guessing at it.

-Joska

Aureman

Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:56 pm

#6

Thanks Lady Grey for confirming somehing I have been suspicious about for a while.. Factory creation times... I have known something was not straight forward with this... But I have not cross referrenced it with complexity... I'll let you know what I find out soon.... off to do some experimenting.

-Joska

PadreBook

Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:03 pm

#7

Hmm, I would like to see the effects of +complexity tapes on this situation.

Padre

ZenDragonMLS

Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:07 pm

#8

Aureman wrote:
Thanks Lady Grey for confirming somehing I have been suspicious about for a while.. Factory creation times... I have known something was not straight forward with this... But I have not cross referrenced it with complexity... I'll let you know what I find out soon.... off to do some experimenting.
-Joska

Actually, someone posted in another thread that factory times were just (8 * complexity) seconds per item, so the relationship between complexity and factory times seems pretty well established and straightforward.

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Aureman

Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:33 pm

#9

OK, here is my data from Complexity vs factory time:

Item = Light Ore Mining Unit

run: BER Orig/Final, Exper Efficiency %Orig/Final, Complexity Orig/Final, time per unit

1:2/4, 27/77, 13/23, 104
2:2/3, 27/71, 13/15, 104
3:2/1, 27/0, 13/14, 104
4:2/4, 27/94, 13/15, 104

Therefore, we can conclude that only the original schematic complexity plays a factor and not the items's final experimented complexity. And the equation of time(secs) = 8*[orig complexity] os correct.

OK, back to Complexity vs BER.... off to run more experiments.

-Joska

LadyGrey

Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:36 pm

#10

I was getting 180 seconds per item for one schematic, and 200 seconds per item for a second one, with the only difference being that one was an amazing success, and the other was a great success, on final assembly (all the ingredients were the same for each one).

Running a crate of 50 health packs, then, differed by 20 * 50 seconds. That's 1000 seconds per 50-crate, or almost 17 minutes difference. That would be 5.5 hours for a full 1000-unit run.

I'm starting to realize why I charge an arm-and-a-leg for the health packs. A full run of 1000 health packs (at 200 seconds each) will take 55.5 hours. I've been doing them just one crate at a time, and hadn't actually worked out the real time involved.

Sorry for injecting this into the Architect Forum. Got caught up with thinking about the numbers involved in this.

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LadyGrey

Don't let the negative AFKophobes get you down. Play the game however you want.

Is the beta testing almost over for this game?

ievb4fun

Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:40 pm

#11

Made a BER 10 Medium just now, and it seems that Complexity goes up by 1, everytime you Run Experiment. All my results were Great Success, but it didn't matter if I used 1 point, 2 points, 3 points. The Complexity went up by 1, when experimenting on both Efficiency or Hopper Size. That to me means that more points I use at one time, the lower the Complexity is going to be... where we go from here, I have no clue.

MIGO
Master Architect - Gorath Server
Bestine' Harvesters - We'll beat any Vendor's Price
(-1880 -3930 SW of Bestine on Tatooine)

Aureman

Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:51 am

#12

I know there has been discussion on how strucure complexity factors into harvesters and BER. I have been contemplating it myself for a while as well. The other day I had noticed, while crafting a harvester that the BER listed was lower than what i had it up to.... so i began paying real close attention to my process. Here is what I was doing:

I would put 2 points into Efficiency and experiment and inchworm my way up to the max BER. Once I hit the max BER, I switched to Storage. I was shooting for max BER and the most storage I could get. Well, as I got things down, I found the least number of points of experimentation I could use to get the max BER (ie just barely getting BER to it's max number. eg 13 for heavy min harvs). As I followed this method, I began to notice a number of harvesters having BER 12 instead of 13 that I had gottent them up to. Now, I know if you fail on Storage, it can bring down the Efficiency enough to lower the BER... but it was dropping on me even when I was succeeding on storage experimentation. A few more BER 12s and I was convinced of what was happening: I saw the BER go from 13 to 12 on a great success in storage experimentation. This perplexed me untilI noticed that the only thing that changed other than storage % was COMPLEXITY. Then going back over my algorithm for crafting these, it made sense. I was getting JUST enough in Efficiency to get max BER, so the BER must be calculated by factoring in hte complexity. This is either dome empiricly as [Experimentation factor] - [Complexity factor], or [Experimentation factor] / [Complexity factor]. Either way would lower BER as complexity grew. But BERs lowering as complexity grows, I know for a fact. I have proven it to myself mathmatically and in gamea couple ways now.

This still leaves open the question of how complexity skill tapes function in relation to crafting and BERs. Does a positive number help, or does it hurt? If positive numbers increase the complexity factor, that would most definately hurt in terms of BER. I would assume that a positive skill number would help to minimize the impact of complexity on BER, as that would be the intuitive way to do things..... unless of course complexity has other effects on structures other than BER. If anyone on the Radiant server (or i suppose any other server) had a good set of structure complexity skill tapes I could borrow, I could run a set of tests that should empirically determine what the function used in this calculation is, or at least prove the impact of the factors involved.

Anyway, just thought I'd share a piece to the puzzle that I stumbled across.

Joska Tuzzel'Vassal
Radiant Server

Architect Archive

Thread: Complexity and BER