Architect Archive

Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart

GodlyX
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:03 am
#92

There should be an actual "Mining" profession. The higher in the profession you get, the better harvesters you can drop and the more lots you get. You should also have discounts, just like the merchant's discounts and advanced surveying.


Prerequisite should be Artisan 0/0/0/4




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zoynk
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:05 am
#93

The devs have no problem with a person investing money in 5-8 accounts. But if someone were to swap lots, they do. In both cases there is an advantage to players. However, there is only one advantage on SoE's side: more money.

Sorry, but with holo grinding coming to an end, large mining operations will become less useful. Is there really any point in harvesting 20 million units of say, grinding aluminum, when 19 million units remain on the vendor, never being sold? If holo grinding never existed, is everyone convinced that so many lot swappers would exist?

We're not just talking about harvesters here, either. We're talking about houses and factories as well. Not only are the devs excusing aforementioned restrictions on lot swapping with "It gives an unfair advantage." But also, they're refusing to increase stack sizes on resources/components due to it creating an "unfair advantage." In turn, storage will be restricted more so then it is now. Sorry, but any "advantage" excuse that a dev can come up with, is just a tad too late. Anyone who started playing the game 6 months before another player, has an advantage. Whether it be products, credits, resources, reputation, etc.

Case in point: Large mining organizations will eventualy fall apart due to the elimination of holo grinding. Restricting lot swapping will just ensure a controled pace once the expansion is released. Everything the devs are changing is to prepare for the expansion and new players. Everything that is being changed is an effort to keep income/customers on a steady flow.



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GodlyX
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:07 am
#94

The way the system is set up now, there can be heavy mineral mining installations for as far as the eye can see in a popular area all put down by one person with cross-server lots; they can be in one spot for months even! This is UNFAIR to other players, especially newer players. In theory, it is EXPLOITATION (Please look it up in the dictionary if you disagree) and needs to be rectified.




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Anian
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:09 am
#95






GodlyX wrote:

The way the system is set up now, there can be heavy mineral mining installations for as far as the eye can see in a popular area all put down by one person with cross-server lots; they can be in one spot for months even! This is UNFAIR to other players, especially newer players. In theory, it is EXPLOITATION (Please look it up in the dictionary if you disagree) and needs to be rectified.







Exploitatoin in the real world and in this game are two greatly different things. I can look up definitions in the dictionary til I grow old and grey. But, it won't pertain to this game at all.


Anian




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HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:10 am
#96

Cross-server lot trading needs to be eliminated. Period. Why? Because it's bad for the game economy. How?


With cross-server trades, additional miners cost you only power and maintenance. And the few minutes it takes you to work the logistics of the trade, but those are irrelevant.


Without cross-server trades, if you want additional lots, you not only have to pay power & maint, but you also have to make arrangements with PEOPLE ON YOUR SAME SERVER to get those lots.


The power / maint is a wash.


The difference is that with cross-server, you get ALL THE MONEY to the DETRIMENT of the players ON YOUR SERVER.


That's bad for the server's economy.


I hope the devs put a hard stop to this practice ASAP.




Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
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Dvnce
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:14 am
#97






Aucob wrote:



You say that 1 player running 300 harvs is not good for the game. Let's say the admin nerf goes in and 1 player is no longer in charge of 300 harvs. Personally, I think that's an exaggeration, but let's use it as an example. This one player is now in charge of his 10 harvs. Let's say this causes the entire resource supply market to go down by 50%. What would happen to the prices? Would they double? Triple? Suddenly there is a lot more money to be made in resource selling. Folks who are interested in easy money start harvesting and selling resources. Supply goes back up. In the end, how much of a difference has it made in the overall resource market? In my opinion, not much.







Sure it is very probable that there will be a resource shortage.. causing resource prices to go up.. ( this is no big deal.. and in my honest opinion to a degree this needs to happen).. then you are also right many people will see that resource dealing is lucrative and will jump into the business.. again causing a rise in available resources... But.. You know what..? In this scenorio there is REAL people dictating the market for these resources not 1 guy with 300 lot traded harvesters...


I have been saying this in several threads now.. Prices going up is not always a bad thing...


As far as the crafting items.. I do think that the intention was that it would be hard to make a large schematic run of items.. and it would be unlikely to be able to make 1000 copies of the same gun.. instead there would be a variety ...






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HalasterTheBlack
Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:20 am
#98

I suppose I should elaborate a bit based upon other comments in this thread.


Removing admin entirely from harvesters is a bad thing. Why? Because it seems to be a legitimate business practice to rent lots from others *on the same server*. I might want to pay a player X for asking him to dump his harvs in a particular location and adminning me, and X++ for managing the whole thing himself and just getting the resources to me. I don't have that option if I can't be admin'd on the harvester.


Further, it's terribly inconvenient. I operate 4 accounts, 3 of them with lots full of harvesters. If I had to log each toon in turn to manage the harvesters, it would be a huge pain in the butt. It's much better for me to run one of my toons around to all the harvesters to tweak 'em. Of course, I have to log toons on to place and re-deed, and that's fine.


Each of these seems to be highly "legit" practices that would be eliminated if you couldn't admin someone else on your harvester.


So how do we eliminate the problem of cross-server lot trades then? Maybe one answer is with advanced decay. Just like housesflagged as residences are removed from city rosters if the owner doesn't log in for X weeks, so should harvesters *cease to exist* if their owner doesn't log in after a certain period of time. Or perhaps something a bit different, that requires X numbers of online, ingame time per month or the harvester decay rate increases by a factor of 10.


Or maybe the devs just clearly state that cross-server lot trades violate the "rules" and assign CSR's reliable, legitimate standards for determining whether lots are cross-server traded and give CSR's the ability to re-deed the harvesters into the lot owner's inventory (or destroy them altogether).




Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
North Coronet Mall (244, -3540) - Weapons
South Coronet Mall (-100, -5760) - Resources

Theed, Naboo (-4370, 3425) - Powerups
Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer.

ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:02 pm
#99

This is from the fan fest forums...i have forgotten which thread..something dealing with politicians i THINK:






It is like this:


1. Developers want to remove all cross server lot trading, period.


2. Removal of admin rights is the best way to go.


3. People raise the justified complaint that a bounty hunter(or anyone who doesn't need their lots) on a server should be able to rent out his lots to another person on the same server if he so chooses, they are his lots after all. Also, what about guilds and people who share houses, harvesters(all on the same server they are active on of course.)


Developers are now seeking to allow example #3 while still achieving example #1. As soon as that can be accomodated for, cross server lot trading is gone. Or much more difficult because you would have to have the person who never plays on your server come in and collect the resources from the harvesters, as well as change the resource harvested, pay maintainance, add power, etc. That is really what they are seeking to end is the inflated accumulation of resources.







and someones idea presented there in:





If the devs limited the amount of structures a person could be admin on, it would solve the problem. Make the number 20 on admin/hopper.







Just more info to present in this discussion. I feel they will also do Factories as well since this is one of the biggest iteams used to store massive amounts of things in..as well as the non-miners most done Lot trade (besides freaking PA halls).


IF they Ta,ke away admin rights..it will easily shut down most forms of Lot Trading VERY effectivly. With what I have running there is no way i could do it if i couldnt change the resources when i desiered.


I am in Planning mode now. Lol lots and lots of ore am i mining =P



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ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:18 pm
#100






Giamai wrote:

actually you are wrong..it was specifcally stated at fanfest that cross-server lot trades are not intended to be used by players because (paraphrase here) artificially created characters selected specifically to hold lots are not contributors to that servers economy and therefore create problems within that economy. ie it is an exploit and it does give you an unfair advantage over honest players on your server.


2 options were mentioned, one is eliminating administration on harvesters


the other was limiting the number of lots on a per account basis


you are not helping the rest of us, you are hurting us, both of these options hurt honest players.


it is not clear what solution the dev's will choose ultimately











Thank you for your insights.


As i had not attended Fan fest I was unaware of their new stance of lot trading. In the past when CSRs were asked it was communicated as not being an exploit. If that situation has changed then they should attempt to communicate that to us.


It was not my nor anyone else's intention i assume to activly hurt other players by providing this service. The demand was there else people Like myself would not have done Lot trades just to attempt to keep up with the demand . HOLO grinding anmd poor game mechanics may have ruined the game to this point. But not the lone miners who sell cheap resources. I value your opinion..and I am trying to see things from as many sides of this as I am able.



Thank You for continuing this discussion.





Semi -Retired

For Public Viewing: LOWCA GALACTIC GALLERY of FINE ART: LOK -3219 -269 (StarForge)
TheOxygen
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:32 pm
#101

Why are the devs wasting time addressing this issue when they could be fixing things that are actually broke? As stated, cross-server lot trades will drop to virtually nil once hologrinding is gone, since static harvesters are only really useful for mining grind-quality stuff. So instead, people like me, who run a ton of mobile harvesters and run a successful business will be out of a job.


For the majority of players, harvesting resources is not "fun" (which is supposedly what the devs want this game to be more about), it is simply a time-consuming and tedious hurdle to jump over to get to the end crafting process.


Any change made before evaluating the situation after Hologrinding is removed would be in poor judgement on SOE's part, but then again, we've seen poor judgement after poor judgement come from this Dev team. As someone pointed out, if this is what they want, it'll go through, despite massive evidence against the idea. "Listening" is clearly not a strong suit of the SOE team, and that only leads to additional player frustration, not just on this matter but in many different cases.


--Iaan K'Vork

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DingoBoi
Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:35 pm
#102






ThothTheWise wrote:



Lol first that is a grammatical error on My part. I was trying to infer because TH is the players rep, that i had sent it only to him and didn't spam every Dev with the information. Agreed, just unclear garmmar, unitentional. which led to wrong conlucsion.


As for me exploiting..that also is not an accurate analogy of what I do. It has been stated that Crossserver Lot trades are legal..so that doesn't allow me for to be exploiting. The may be 'legal' in terms of game design that each character gets 10 lots, but when you create throwaway toons to trade those lots, you are essentially circumventing the system of limiting lots to 10 per REAL player.


Instead of being agrumentative and jumping to conclusions...please try and think about what is currently..VS what you would like to see from the game's mechanics in the future. I'd like to see lot trading stopped. There is a market for minerals and there is a market for renting REAL player lots to harvest with. That I would think you would agree was the design and if not for lack of foresight, would not have permitted your cross server lot trades. So while it is techically legal for now.. it totally is against the spirit of the game. Hence I call it an exploit. You exploit this design flaw to get around the 10 lot cap. It's that simple. Do they ban for this.. no. Is it still an exploit? yes.



This was a question to discuss this particular State of the game. It is a discussion going quite well in the Architect forums. I would hope the same level of intellegence can be found here.



Thank You.







PS: still hope the shut you down. Want to run a mega corporation like that? Then pay real players for lot rental or at least get real players to give you their lots. and to clarify they are not a real player if they don't play on your server as a regular character.


You know this upset the balance that was intended. It gives you access to lots you shouldn't have.


Offically legal or not.. it is wrong and you damn well know it.








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Pawlin
Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:07 pm
#103






CraftDragon wrote:

...

If they nerf lot trades, I cancel my SWG account.

...




Ya I'm sure they get some cancellations after any big nerf. They probably know that will happen. They have to weigh what they think the pros and cons are. If they think it will do more good then they might be willing to sacrafice losing some players. I don't know exactly why think would say it does good to kill lot trades for sure though.


I sympathize with you though. If they did a big nerf on architect then I'd seriously consider quitting.






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KRONOS1974
Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:11 pm
#104

Id rather have people quit, than take advantage of the system and the resource market. Let alone make it harder for the newer player to start out. Harvester fields hurt the economy and our servers.


People afraid to lose their harvesting fields need to learn to make money another way than milking the server from using something that wasnt meant to be in the game.


But i do not agree with the admin nerf. That would suck because i hhave 3 alts and each have admin on everything i put down, i also rent lots from friends for factories.


But i am 100% for the decay on structures. Nothing lasts forever, and since so many want to bring real life issues into the game they would know that.

Decay rate should be like 1-2% on homes, 10-15% on harvesters bi-weekly/monthly. Would take a year for a house to decay and a few months for a harvester.

Then again they added life spans to candles and lamps- even when time runs out they still work unless you move them. LOL



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