Architect Archive
Thread: Current Experimentation Post rant/rave here
Thank you, Marthis, for posting the message from ArchAngel that harvester-extraction experimentation would be removed!
The sudden appearance of harvester-extraction experimentation really threw me for a loop. I have never paid attention to experimentation, since, as far as I could see, it had no effect onthe quality ofharvesters, houses, or furniture. Nor have I paid attention to the qualities of the resources I needed in order to craft these items.
Then, all of a sudden, I found that I had to revise my way of gameplay completely: I would have to concern myself with finding the high qualities of resources I needed, replace my entire line of harvesters and crafting stations, learn about experimenting, and worry about being outsold by architects who hada +25 structure skilltape.
Hopper size I don't concern myself with, since it's never seemed to matter much at all.
It is so enjoyable to hear now that harvester-extraction experimentation will be removed and that all harvesters will revert to what they were!
I like the fact that we architects don't have to run around trying to find the best resources. I spend enough time now running around and moving my harvesters every time the various resources change. I like not having to concern myself with knowing which quality produces what result.
You see, I'm a casual player, one of that rare breed, it seems, for whom the Devs said that SWG was designed. I play SWG for fun. Having to pay attention to experimentation and all that it entails (see above) makes roleplaying an architect seem like a job -- work, work, work -- at least it does to me.
I use my brain for critical thinking enough during my daytime job. When I play a game, I want to RELAX and have fun. So I enjoy the relative simplicity of the architect role as it now stands.
Actually, I became an architect because I thought it meant that I would be able to do what a RL architect does, namely, DESIGN buildings, etc.-- that is, create the blueprints orschematics. I had no real desire to be a surveyor, a miner, an engineer, a machinist, or a salesperson, all of which I now find myself having to roleplay. I also don't like competition -- and I've learned thatthe SWG crafting professions are very competitive.
I guess in a way I'm still discovering which profession is the most fun for me to play. I've been a Novice Musician, but having to play the same music zilliions of times gets old really fast, although I enjoy chatting with people in the cantina.
I've also been a medic, but I soon learned that you have to be really, really dedicated to the profession of healing (and of sitting around waiting for people to come in to the med center), because the financial rewards are minimal.
I've just created a scout and will try that for a while. A good solo profession, with the option to group and socialize whenever one's in the mood. When soloing, no real competition. Financial support from selling animal products. Lots of exploration. Minimal danger as one progresses in mask scent, camouflage, and cover. And the excitement that comes from the challenge of the hunt.
So if experimentation*is* implemented down the road for architects, I will at least have an alternate character I can turn to.
Jae Alinn, Master Artisan/Master Architect, Coronet, Flurry
Krrbacca, Novice Scout, Coronet, Flurry
But med harvs should start at 3 and goto 7 max and heavies should start at 6 and goto 12 max. Either that or drop them even more it is too easy to get resources i think but thats just me i guess have fun all.
Tweaky wrote:
This thread has some good discussion going on, and for the most part, everyone is staying civil. I like this.
My opinions:
I like the idea of decay without destruction. Dont make something go poof. Lowering the effectiveness is decent. Better yet, make it stop completely. After a certain amount of time, which can be sped up be in game events or time the maint fund goes to zero, make the harv stop. But make it so it can be fixed. By the owner/admin. Using a part made by an arch. But each harv has its own type of repair kit, gained at the same level that the harv itself is gotten. I.e. A Heavy Chem Repair Kit is made by anyone with Installations 3, but a Heavy Mineral Kit takes Inst4. Or could just do Heavy Harv Repair Kit for all heavies, and grant the schem at Inst4. Medium Repair Kit at Inst2. No need to reapir personals, as they are disposable anyhow.
I do not agree with giving the architect that made a structure part of the maint fees. Once my house is paid for, I aint giving the builder any more money. I may end up calling the plumber that put in my pipes to come out and fix a busted one, but the contractor I will be done with.
For those that are arguing against decay, or the new improved extraction rates, I offer a few analogies:
You think Wyodak Coal still uses the same equipment they did in the 50's? This is a major producerof the United States' coal. Their web site shows some ink drawings done by a mine foreman in the early 1950's. The overburden (earth that sits on top of the coal) is being removed by a piece of equipment called a fresno...being pulled by horses. Now, the largest drag line in operation can move 160 cubic yards at a pop. The dump trucks alone can move 240 tons per load. Moral...stuff improves over time.
Another example. I drive a 1997 Grand Prix GTP. I used to drive a 1969 GTO Judge. The GTO is considered one of the finer muscle cars from that era. The GTP is just kinda there, except to most who own them. Allowing for inflation, the cars cost roughly the same from the factory. Both cars posted just under 15sec in 1/4 mile in magazine tests when new. Both top out at about 155 (have to get rid of the govenor in the GTP though). Both are near top of the line as far as options. Sound identical, except for styling right? Of course, the GTP gets double the gas mileage, corners so much better it aint funny, has I don't know how many airbags, anti-lock brakes, and so on. The GTP is a better road car, is alot safer, and is actually cheaper for me to upgrade to get it to run 13's in the 1/4mile. Newer is "better."
BTW, I would still tradethe GTPstraight up to get a GTO Judge back though If I could find a sucker to make the trade...**edit** thing is worth over 25k now....grr collectors.
As for decay. Regardless of the amount of maintenence, stuff still breaks. Even with the best PM. I used to fix aircraft in the USMC. Aircraft maintence is one of the most **edit** occupations out there. Everything has an instruction manual, and you have to be looking at it while doing a job. Every part has a PM/replacement schedule. Every job has somenone that is responsible if it is done wrong (other than the mech doing it). I am still responsble for jobs I stamped off on (you stamp the maint form for a job with a little ink stamp if you are an inspector/QA)....and I have been out for nearing 10 years. I can still go to jail if someone dies because of a poor job my crew did way back then. In short, aircraft are VERY well maintained. I worked on UH-1N's and AH-1W's, usually the motors. Wanna know how much of a typical Huey engine that was flying then (early 90's)was original from the 60's? Not a single part, except the serial number plate. Even that "wore out," as I once had to engrave a new one to replace one that could no longer be read well enough when the engine was installed in a bird (god-awful contortions you have to go through to read the left motor's inspection plate...ugh). These motors got the best imaginable preventative maintence. They still broke. They still had to be rebuilt. Heck, they got rebuilt after 1000 hours whether they needed or not. Oh, and it cost almost 5 times as much to build a motor with all new replacement parts (ie everything) as it would have to buy a new one outright. But you never replace everything, and most of the spendy parts are themselves "repairable." But not by us...have to send them to a higher level maintence facility. Stuff breaks down and/or wears out no matter how well you take care of it.
What I will grant the nay-sayers is this...the time line for decay needs to be long. With proper maintenence, a product should last a good long while. But, a good long while in game-time is up for debate....how long in RL does it take to become a doctor versus how long it takes in game. I am thinking Master Doctor, and pre-med already done for RL. I figure the lifetime of a mine between total failures would be 10 "years" and houses 100 "years", and PAs 500 "years"? Not sure how long it actually takes for either of those, but guessing close to 1 month novice to master doc in game, and 5 years RL. So a harvester lasts 2 months between repairs, a house nearing 2 years, and a PA effectively never.
Someone mentioned the pyramids and the Roman Aqueducts though. How many moving parts do those have? That kind of timeline for decay might work for a PA Hall, but nothing else is anywhere close to that scale. Houses should certainly last much longer than harvesters. Not much machinery involved in a house, and off-hand,I can't think of a way to makea house stop working other than not allow any items to be dropped in it until repaired. Can't lock the owner out, as they would need to get in to fix it at the terminal.
My time is up, thanks for yours.
Here's the problem. You are suggesting decay that will only apply to one type of thing that an arch builds. Harvesters. Now youbasically have onlytwo buyers for those, and that is mostly miners. These are the people that supply you with resources. Houses and furniture are a finite market leaving the only market available to the arch is the miner/arch circle where you end up feeding off of each other. The problem is that most of the money in this circle is also finite. You get influx of money only when other classes decide to buy into the system, and usually in a temp state. As soon as you get a few people hording cash reserves this pool degenerates and demand plummets. Archs can only sell sporatically and resources are only needed sporatically because of the lack of need. IT still kills the professions. Archs need a market and so far SOE has really failed to supply one other than for weapons.
Now we could fix the system better if we added maintenance and decay across the board. And that means to everything. Every item, every sturcture. The idea is that nothing lives forever but can be prolonged with good care. Even paintings and rock statues need care of the decay. Will it be a pain in the butt, sure, especially to code it, but it will fix the system by drawing a hellacious amount out of the economy and providing every profession a need to restock vendors. Do I see it as likely, no. There in lies the problem, how to fix something without destroying your player base. =/
Swillholder wrote:
Once again, Tie extraction rates to the efficiency of the extraction rate... i dont seem to be generation much discussion about this, but this would make sense.... and it fits in the current model... if a heavy pulls 10 now, in a month it will pull 9. So the heavies that pull 7 arent so bad (becuase they still work) and this offers 2 avenues.... 1) architects replace the ore unit 2) heavies are never repaired to full efficiency, so eventually it becomes so innefficient to run the thing that its replaced.
You aren't getting much discussion because this is decay, just in another package.
You got me, LordTigris. I had thought of a way to work house/PA decay, but failed to include itin the post. My idea is to make them stop working as well...no longer allow items to be dropped until they are repair, in the same manner as what I outlined for harvesters, only Home/Guild Hall repair kits, available from an architect of level to build that structure.
Also, Architects are not the miners' only customers. They get alot (most?) of their business from armor and weaponsmiths, DEs, and especially Doctors/BEs/Medics that have no survey skills to find good spots to drop their own mines. Those professions get money directly from the money-makers (combat professions doing missions), so new money flows into the system you described.And some of those professions also buy from the architect from time to time. Also, money leaves when the miner or architect buys a product from one of those other professions, or a pet from a CH, or whatever. It is not a closed system.
You mentioned that the house/furniture market is finite, leaving one available market. Without decay on harvesters...that market becomes finite as well. So you would have all architects do no business whatsoever? Yes there will always be new players being added to the system that need houses/harvesters. But I would need 5 new players each week to take up my production. I dont think we are adding that many ... 5 for each architect, each week...that actually need/want harvs.
You do say that we need decay on everything, and I wholeheartedly agree. I also agree that it is unlikely to happen. But we do not have to do it all or nothing. My suggestions, and those of many others, give the architects one avenue of recurring business, just like the combat crafters have. As it stands now, we have nothing to do after someone fills all their lots and has a few extras for flexibilty (assuming they have the highest level mines they want). That person will only come back (to any architect) if they want to redecorate, or if they manage to destroy a harvester/house. Some may want to move planets, or upgrade their house, but that usually involves either a trade in, or a one-sale competitor, for the old one...either way it means less value than a brand new sale of the same model home.
We are the only class that makes permanent items. We have no way of generating ongoing business from the majority of the gaming population. Decay gives us that. The decay needs to be much slower than for the other professions items, but it does need to be there. As for basing the decay of a harvester on the amount mined (forget whereI saw that idea, but I think is a valid one)...That is how weapon decay is figured...I guarantee a combat only Master Pistoleer burns through more guns than I do (making my own 99.8 WRKs helps a bit too). Why should a weaponsmith that only drops his heavies when some really good phrik alum pops deal with replacing those mines that are usually in deed form just as often asa full time miner that is constantly running harvs.
Good discussion...is nice to actually see people posting intelligently and without flames on an unmoderated (mostly) board. Some really good ideas coming up too.
I'm shamelessly copying this from another thread I posted it in. This actually concerns the decay issue which is tied to how extraction/experimentation affects everyone.
I've been tossing the idea out for linearly increasing maintenance rate for awhile. I'm sure we wouldn't get to "pick" the actual rates, but what I had in mind was something of a capped maintenance rate that is reached at a "maturity" level over time based on usage. Realistic numbers would be something like 3-5 times the initial maintenance (Accelerated with increased extraction rates?) reached over 2-6 months based on harvester size (IE 2 months personal, 4 months medium, 6 heavies). I personally don't like the idea of repair components as that means we become the repairmen of SWG (And there's plenty of things needing fixed currently...why add more?
I think the devs are worriedabout player cities more than decay at the moment, and that's fine with me.Citiesarea temporary solution at best until more professions are taken care of. Perhaps then, we'll get the decay issue resolved. There's some really good ideas in this thread, but like I said, I doubt they'll beresponded toanytime soon as cities will be "the new life" we're looking for and will last for several months. *me looks to see if Thunderheart is watching*
PS: For those of you using real life comparrisons (Comparing equipment to the way it "lasts" in the real world), I can tell you from first hand experience that heavy industrial use of equipment wears out faster than a lot of you might think. I work as an industrial electrician on Natural Gas plants that make upwards of several hundred million in revenue monthly. The things I repair/replace on a continuous basis are designed for 24/7 operation under severe conditions (IE 100+ degrees, -30 degrees, rain, sleet, snow, sandstorms, hurricanes, tornados..you name it, and they were made to survive them AND keep working). Motors and generators are my forte' and They do last a long time, but not 40 years like some of you imagine. Bearings wear out the fastest under heavy loads and that will lock up a rotor spinning at 3600 rpms weighing in at several hundred pounds. Often that will cause the shaft of the rotor to warp makingit scrap metal. This usually happens within 2-3 years of continuous usage. Sometimes sooner. This happens in conjunction with a very rigorous maintenance program that checks everything in the unit from air pressure/tempreture, vacuums, loaded torque placed on the motor in ft-lbs and current in amperes, etc.. They miss nothing. If the maintenance is not as rigorous, I've seen the same components lasting 2-3 years go out in just 2-3 months.
Also, before I got my training in all the higher tech stuff, I used to work ondrilling rigs and pulling units (The ones that fix the existing wells setups). I will tell you that drilling rigs have more compnents break on them on a weekly basis (Typically from moving the rigs, and the occassional while drilling breaks), than a used 1976 used hyundai fiXit GT <Insert random number here with 3 zeros behind it>. I've seen generators go down in the middle of the night, drill collars (The heavy duty pipe used right behind the drill bit to "take" the brunt torque being used) snap in half, and even was on a rig that burned completely down from a BOP failure causing one of the main engines to throw a rod causing a spark which ignited the blowout making a burning well much like we all saw in Iraq. It melted the rig to the ground. Total slag.
Just some FYI for you people in how industrial compnonets actually work/last in the real world while being maintained.
See, I equate the outgoing money to other classes about equal to the incoming money from those same other classes. For me it is still a mostly finite system with little jumps up and down here and there. I also find that most smiths do their own survey work because it maximizes profit with little skill expenditure. The really rich ones don't, but they don't need to. A weaponsmith might buy a lot of 100k resources, but how often when their products take only 2500. An arch is looking at 30-50k an item, they buy in the millions. They are the principal buyers from miners. An occassional purchase of 100k by a weaponsmith is just a blip averaged by a purchase of a good pistol from them by the miner.
Arch have had business because theyhad a miner community constantly upgrading to the best equipment. This will happen again if the experimentation rates stay live, but otherwise we are doomed. I want a long-term fix. Decay would solve this problem, but the devs have already stated that they deem maintenance and decay double taxation. And they sure as heck won't pull the maintenance as they need money sinks. Now if they want to double tax arch items, that is fine, if it is fair. I think a maintenance/decay model applied across the board is a great money sink and also fixes the recurrent market problem with one stone. People will gripe, but as long as they don't go charging 3k/day for your shirt, it would work. It would take some major tweaking for each product, but you could make almost every item last about 2 months with normal decay and pull a lot of money out of the system in small bits. Think of spending 200cr a day in clothing maintenace for your 3 clothing items. Kinda like spending 2 dollars for drycleaning or laundry so to speak (based on a 200cr deliver mission of 60m, kinda like $2 in the real world). This would also make durability experimentation worthwhile. Ever look at the tailor lines?? Experimentation is missing there as well, and once you buy a shirt, it is good for the next 3 milleniums. At least they get colors. /sigh
Archs, DE's, BE's, and Tailors all need this fix because they all make permenant items right now. =/
I was thinking something along the lines of creature mounts/vehicles/ships.
Shouldn't be able to feasibly keep those in your backpack now should ya? Anyways, basically give us a schematic for an addon to a home that gives it a creture pen, a garage, or a hangar respectively (well 3 diff schematics then) At least then housing would be requirements.
That would at least bring a large portion of the player population into the loop by needing the pre-requisites to use a mount. Then once whatever decay issues are decided on, we're fixed permanently. I'm not sure how easy something like this would be to code, and I seriously doubt that this would recieve any attention since they're already in development. But hey, gotta start an idea somewhere 
I wish you guys would read my post over here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Development&message.id=698925&view=by_date_ascending&page=2
It's on the second page, it's an idea about harvester Power Ups. It benefits all and helps you in many ways.
1.) It helps the miner's who support you because they will not have to repurchase all their harvester's again
2.) It helps the Architect because it's a power-up, you build them in crates, after someone redeed's their harvester, they'll need a new one for the next time they put their harvester down.
3.) builds competition between architect's for the best power-up
4.) helps the game by reducing resources from the game, which is something that the dev's have said they wanted to do
5.) This will benefit the Master Architect's in the game instead of the fly by night/one tree climber competition.
6.) A different form of decay (just like replacing to the new harvester's is a nerfing way of decay)
please read it, you'll see it's a good idea and has lots of potential for future idea's like I posted.
I will never agree to power-ups or repairs to Harvestors. The gold is NOT to turn Architects into repairmen, the goal is to provide long term re-occuring need forarchitect products.
Personaly I like liniear increasing pay mantenance over time as a way to achieve decay.
GhOsT767565634765 wrote:
I'll ry it but if i hate it and urban planner skill tree sucks bi bi architect
Raged Mind
Sorry can't resist , UP is gone , and by the Bi Bi comment you made ...You swinging from both branches there boss??
HAHA j/k