Architect Archive

Thread: Just wanted to make sure you all saw this :)

Poldano
Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:26 pm
#14

Tiggs has a thread on this in the Dev Tracker forum. That seems to bea central point for getting comments in quickly, andseeing thedev response.There are lots of comments, some quite favorable, some quite unfavorable, similar to this thread.


I generally like the feature, but it's obvious it needs some constraints for playability. With the right constraints, it can even enhance the viability of player malls, and maybe encourage a new structure type for us (yes!).


Saego Kennar, Wanderhome
Hazelina
Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:07 pm
#15

This totally jacks the merchant class. There are at least 3 columns that are now completely worthless. 1) You no longer need to get the advertising on the world map skill. 2) You don't need more than 1 vendor (you can just put everything on one vendor and the bazaar searches will sort it out) 3) The ad barking, vendor selection and clothing ability boxesare completely useless.


The good news is I can drop most of my merchant skills now.I will probably keep the lowered maintenance column but other than that I won't need merchant anymore.


And deflation will run rampant with everybody undercutting everyone else. Good for the consumer, bad for the crafters.



________________________________________________________________________________________
Any auctions I win I can pick up, or put them on a vendor for me and give me the location.
yodachaos
Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:43 pm
#16

agree with pawlin, this will be a very interesting change if it comes to be on the live servers.



Master Architect - 12 Point - playing since launch.

Coronet Mall - Marfa Structures.
887,0,-4684
corellia
SWG_Miriam
Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:12 pm
#17




Hazelina wrote:

This totally jacks the merchant class. There are at least 3 columns that are now completely worthless. 1) You no longer need to get the advertising on the world map skill. 2) You don't need more than 1 vendor (you can just put everything on one vendor and the bazaar searches will sort it out) 3) The ad barking, vendor selection and clothing ability boxesare completely useless.


The good news is I can drop most of my merchant skills now.I will probably keep the lowered maintenance column but other than that I won't need merchant anymore.


And deflation will run rampant with everybody undercutting everyone else. Good for the consumer, bad for the crafters.





You should actually read things before you jump to unwarranted conclusions;


(1) Tiggs said that "auto-retrieve" will be turned off, so you will have to still visit a merchant's store to pick up your items -- giving the opportunity for other point-of-sale transactions.


(2) You DO need more than one vendor if you don't want to be limited to only 100 items on your single vendor. If you only have 100 items to sell currently, then you really don't need more than one currently anyways.


(3) Ad-barking will help with the lateral sales that will happen when a buyer comes to pick up his item.


(4) There is absolutely nothing wrong with people selling things for the lowest possible price. That's how a free market works. If someone sells something at rock-bottom below, below cost -- like speeders at 1 cpu -- then nothing is stopping one consciencious merchant from instantly buying that person out (remember, everyone will have instant access to every vendor in the galaxy), then reselling the items for their fair market value at a huuuuge profit. A person "dumping" their items on the market cannot do it indefinitely. And if they DO do it indefinitely, then just keep buying him out -- think of the fool as your employee widdling away his fortune for your own benefit. I know for sure that I will be buying out anyone, then reselling at a fair price, who wishes to dump their items on the market.


(5) Quality matters. People won't buy something for a low price simply because it's a low price. Every server only has a small handful of respected crafters who excel in their fields. I doubt crafters of such high stature would intentionally "dump" just for the sake of dumping their best crafted items -- and if there is one foolish to do it, then buy him out. I know I will.





____ Maura _________________________________
PRE-NGE PWNZ3R of JEDI

... Before the dark times ... before the NGE.


Hazelina
Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:34 pm
#18






SWG_Miriam wrote:




Hazelina wrote:

This totally jacks the merchant class. There are at least 3 columns that are now completely worthless. 1) You no longer need to get the advertising on the world map skill. 2) You don't need more than 1 vendor (you can just put everything on one vendor and the bazaar searches will sort it out) 3) The ad barking, vendor selection and clothing ability boxesare completely useless.


The good news is I can drop most of my merchant skills now.I will probably keep the lowered maintenance column but other than that I won't need merchant anymore.


And deflation will run rampant with everybody undercutting everyone else. Good for the consumer, bad for the crafters.





You should actually read things before you jump to unwarranted conclusions;


(1) Tiggs said that "auto-retrieve" will be turned off, so you will have to still visit a merchant's store to pick up your items -- giving the opportunity for other point-of-sale transactions.


(2) You DO need more than one vendor if you don't want to be limited to only 100 items on your single vendor. If you only have 100 items to sell currently, then you really don't need more than one currently anyways.


(3) Ad-barking will help with the lateral sales that will happen when a buyer comes to pick up his item.


(4) There is absolutely nothing wrong with people selling things for the lowest possible price. That's how a free market works. If someone sells something at rock-bottom below, below cost -- like speeders at 1 cpu -- then nothing is stopping one consciencious merchant from instantly buying that person out (remember, everyone will have instant access to every vendor in the galaxy), then reselling the items for their fair market value at a huuuuge profit. A person "dumping" their items on the market cannot do it indefinitely. And if they DO do it indefinitely, then just keep buying him out -- think of the fool as your employee widdling away his fortune for your own benefit. I know for sure that I will be buying out anyone, then reselling at a fair price, who wishes to dump their items on the market.


(5) Quality matters. People won't buy something for a low price simply because it's a low price. Every server only has a small handful of respected crafters who excel in their fields. I doubt crafters of such high stature would intentionally "dump" just for the sake of dumping their best crafted items -- and if there is one foolish to do it, then buy him out. I know I will.







First of all vendors can have more than 100 items.


And you forgot to explain how the advertising on the world map skill would still be useful (the reason for the entire first column in the merchant class and one of the most important class abilities)


And this is the archictect forum and I was referring to architect items. Quality, for the most part *doesn't* matter once you hit max BER (which is easy to do) and it really doesn't matter how high the quality of resources are you put into houses or factories now does it?


As for this being good for the consumer, I already said that if you read the last sentence. It will still cause deflation and that is bad for crafters.




________________________________________________________________________________________
Any auctions I win I can pick up, or put them on a vendor for me and give me the location.
SWG_Miriam
Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:08 am
#19




Hazelina wrote:

First of all vendors can have more than 100 items.


And you forgot to explain how the advertising on the world map skill would still be useful (the reason for the entire first column in the merchant class and one of the most important class abilities)


And this is the archictect forum and I was referring to architect items. Quality, for the most part *doesn't* matter once you hit max BER (which is easy to do) and it really doesn't matter how high the quality of resources are you put into houses or factories now does it?


As for this being good for the consumer, I already said that if you read the last sentence. It will still cause deflation and that is bad for crafters.






Instead of jumping to conclusions based on something that hasn't even made it to Test Center yet, why don't you make positive suggestions on how to make the changes integrate well into the Mechant class? Whether you like it or not, the system as it stands now basically sucks. The crafters who flaunt their much lauded "business connections" are just taking advantage of the fact that the system to find things sucks. It's a huge time drain to find what you want. For instance, last week it took me two whole hours using the Planetary Map just to find a suit of composite armor. Two hours!


To make Merchant x/0/0/0 a viable line, all they have to do is make it a requirement to hook your vendors up to the bazaar. Simple. I'm not disagreeing with you that if they don't do that, and allow anyone withonly Artisan 0/0/3/0 to hook up to the bazaar, then yes, it will kill Merchant x/0/0/0. *shrug* in that case, so what -- you just saved yourself 14 skillpoints buy relinquishing that line. Use those 14 points to make yourself a better crafter, or a better combatant.


And yes, if you have the ability toprop up only one vendor, then you can only have an item limit of 100. Are you even a Merchant? You should know this.


Your "deflation" argument is nonsense. I heard the same nonsense the month of launch -- where everyone cried wolf about Large PA supported crafters undercutting, dumping, etc, their wares on the market. Didn't happen. Why? Because nobody wants to waste their time doing something for free. People who dump are basically working for free -- what fun is that? It's not. Besides, people in PAs already give their stuff away for free to other PA members.


If you do find someone dumping and causing "deflation", such as a person selling 20 large houses for 10k each, why not quickly buy each and every one of them, then re-list them on your vendors for 80k each? You'll make an 800% profit! Even if you just listed them at 20k each, it's still a tidy profit for what was ZERO work on your part.





____ Maura _________________________________
PRE-NGE PWNZ3R of JEDI

... Before the dark times ... before the NGE.


Hazelina
Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:29 am
#20






SWG_Miriam wrote:


Instead of jumping to conclusions based on something that hasn't even made it to Test Center yet, why don't you make positive suggestions on how to make the changes integrate well into the Mechant class? Whether you like it or not, the system as it stands now basically sucks. The crafters who flaunt their much lauded "business connections" are just taking advantage of the fact that the system to find things sucks. It's a huge time drain to find what you want. For instance, last week it took me two whole hours using the Planetary Map just to find a suit of composite armor. Two hours!


To make Merchant x/0/0/0 a viable line, all they have to do is make it a requirement to hook your vendors up to the bazaar. Simple. I'm not disagreeing with you that if they don't do that, and allow anyone withonly Artisan 0/0/3/0 to hook up to the bazaar, then yes, it will kill Merchant x/0/0/0. *shrug* in that case, so what -- you just saved yourself 14 skillpoints buy relinquishing that line. Use those 14 points to make yourself a better crafter, or a better combatant.


And yes, if you have the ability toprop up only one vendor, then you can only have an item limit of 100. Are you even a Merchant? You should know this.


Your "deflation" argument is nonsense. I heard the same nonsense the month of launch -- where everyone cried wolf about Large PA supported crafters undercutting, dumping, etc, their wares on the market. Didn't happen. Why? Because nobody wants to waste their time doing something for free. People who dump are basically working for free -- what fun is that? It's not. Besides, people in PAs already give their stuff away for free to other PA members.


If you do find someone dumping and causing "deflation", such as a person selling 20 large houses for 10k each, why not quickly buy each and every one of them, then re-list them on your vendors for 80k each? You'll make an 800% profit! Even if you just listed them at 20k each, it's still a tidy profit for what was ZERO work on your part.








At Novice merchant you can have 2 merchants with a 500 item limit. (it says one in the novice box but it is actually 2). 1from theartisan line leftover which has the limit you are talking about. I'd spend the6 points for the extra 500 items. Rarely do I have more than that for sale at a time andthe new system would negate the need to advance further to increase that limit or the vendor limit...


And deflation happened before. 2 Christmas' ago when they gave everyone a holocron. When everyone found out you had to master a bunch of professions there were people who would grind Architect in a fewdays and the market was literally *flooded* with architect items. The market never fully recovered. Architect items do not decay and eventually the demand for new itemsdrops to a trickle - mostlythe influx of new players into the game (which is getting smaller all the time).


Why not buy stuff people are selling at low prices? If I see a heavy harvestor or large house for 50k I'll buy it up. But the demand for "strange art" statues is only so much and I won't even try to compete with the 50 of them that are sitting in the bazaar right now for 1k. Or the 30 small houses people are selling in the bazaar for 3k. Competing with Architect grinders who are just making stuff for exp and dumping it at giveaway prices has never been fun. And it's not like other classes where there is an actual difference between a master and a novice. A couch is a couch is a couch whether a master makes it or a novice. With experimentation tapes and the right resources you don't even need to be a master to reach max BER...


Running from vendor to vendor *is* a pain in the ass when that "uber weapon shop stocked DAILY" only has a CDEF pistol in stock. But it used to be a lot worse... now at least when a vendor is empty it is removed from the world map...



________________________________________________________________________________________
Any auctions I win I can pick up, or put them on a vendor for me and give me the location.
bluejanus
Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:27 am
#21

People like to tout globalism in their support of this. But in globalism, it actually takes time to deliver anything. You don't get the instant gratification. You also can't check the world's inventory in real time. This patch idea is bad in other ways, since the bazaar will be that much fuller. I don't recall seeing in the patch message anything at all about improving bazaar searching. And everyone will have to list their products in order to compete, so the bazaar now will have hundreds of thousands of more entries. Perhaps the game crafters will go back to listing generic names instead of customized names - a loss for individuality.

This is a terrible patch. It's too bad the devs don't list their rationales for patches. I would be interested in knowing what problem they think they're fixing. This patch should definitely change the manner of the servers' economies.





Isander Aperin - Kettemoor Master Architect (home: Serenity, Naboo)
Structures vendor in the HorkCo Shop near Coronet, Corellia (CLOSED)
Structures vendors in the Mos Mesric Mall near Mos Espa, Tatooine (CLOSED)
Structures, jedi kit, crafting station and resource vendors in Serenity near Kaadara, Naboo (CLOSED)
Niklesnitz
Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:01 am
#22

This is all fine and dandy for crafters who's items they can actually experiment on and distinguish themselves with. But for architect, its just another let down.


Any master architect can make BER 13 harvs and 14 fusons. Any master arch can make a red couch, a large potted tree and so on.


The only thing we have to compete with is our attitude, shop location, shop ambience, price and availability. Now it will just come down to who sells the cheapest and can put up more inventory.


I don't know many archs on my server, but I bet if I was able to search the entire galaxy for architect items I would find quite a few. Even if I had fully stocked vendors, its going to come down to price, who is willing to sell the lowest. And we already know that many architects are willing to sell for next to nothing just tomove items.


Buy all those low priced items and sell them for higher you say? While I do have the ability to do that, why should I? I'm not out to corner the market. I've collected a fan base, some of whom I know from speaking with and some who just know that they can come to my vendor andwhat they want will be there. Over time that will not last, people will start using this global search. Not to mention newbies, who will only know this method of getting goods.




Holosim - Master Architect of Flurry
Emee
- Gunslinger of Flurry


Come see the market of New Freeport, Naboo - Flurry

Just a Hop, Skip and a Jump from the Shuttleport


Crimsonsplat
Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:02 am
#23

Even with the change to force people to pick items up, this is a terrible idea. It utterly cheapens the Merchant profession which is ALREADY a wate of SP. If they insist on destroying crafting professions by pitting longtime crafters against "one-month wonders" in a price war, then the least they can do is get rid of the utter waste of points Merchant just became.

If someone held a gun to my head and made me choose, I'd say keep the points and lose the entire galaxy search feature.

Oh, I forgot. The Devs ARE holding a gun to our heads. Although personally, I think this is proof that the they finaly spent a couple of months actually playing the game.....all as combat types.

Novock
Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:15 am
#24






SWG_Miriam wrote:




Hazelina wrote:

This totally jacks the merchant class. There are at least 3 columns that are now completely worthless. 1) You no longer need to get the advertising on the world map skill. 2) You don't need more than 1 vendor (you can just put everything on one vendor and the bazaar searches will sort it out) 3) The ad barking, vendor selection and clothing ability boxesare completely useless.


The good news is I can drop most of my merchant skills now.I will probably keep the lowered maintenance column but other than that I won't need merchant anymore.


And deflation will run rampant with everybody undercutting everyone else. Good for the consumer, bad for the crafters.





You should actually read things before you jump to unwarranted conclusions;


(1) Tiggs said that "auto-retrieve" will be turned off, so you will have to still visit a merchant's store to pick up your items -- giving the opportunity for other point-of-sale transactions.


(2) You DO need more than one vendor if you don't want to be limited to only 100 items on your single vendor. If you only have 100 items to sell currently, then you really don't need more than one currently anyways.


As the competition increases you will find there will be less items you can make a profit on. So there will be less items you need to have stocked. And the reason I keep a lot of pain items to make is to have a good variety and make sure my customers aren't dissapointed when visting my store. This will be unneccassry in the current system.


(3) Ad-barking will help with the lateral sales that will happen when a buyer comes to pick up his item.


So what we will set our droids in our shop? Our vendors can bark for those in the shop. The barker droids become novelities not neccessites.


(4) There is absolutely nothing wrong with people selling things for the lowest possible price. That's how a free market works. If someone sells something at rock-bottom below, below cost -- like speeders at 1 cpu -- then nothing is stopping one consciencious merchant from instantly buying that person out (remember, everyone will have instant access to every vendor in the galaxy), then reselling the items for their fair market value at a huuuuge profit. A person "dumping" their items on the market cannot do it indefinitely. And if they DO do it indefinitely, then just keep buying him out -- think of the fool as your employee widdling away his fortune for your own benefit. I know for sure that I will be buying out anyone, then reselling at a fair price, who wishes to dump their items on the market.


Again this just whows once more the advantage of the big players over the small players. They have the cash to squeeze them out of the market place and now have more tools to do so. Its is very likely Monopolies will be intesified by this.


(5) Quality matters. People won't buy something for a low price simply because it's a low price. Every server only has a small handful of respected crafters who excel in their fields. I doubt crafters of such high stature would intentionally "dump" just for the sake of dumping their best crafted items -- and if there is one foolish to do it, then buy him out. I know I will.








Novock
Cr|mson Kn|ghtsCo-Leader of <-CK->
Tim-bo
Cr|mson Kn|ghts- Architect/Droid Engineer/Merchant

Dvnce
Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:15 am
#25






SWG_Miriam wrote:

If you do find someone dumping and causing "deflation", such as a person selling 20 large houses for 10k each, why not quickly buy each and every one of them, then re-list them on your vendors for 80k each? You'll make an 800% profit! Even if you just listed them at 20k each, it's still a tidy profit for what was ZERO work on your part.








Just put this up for thought.. I am currently loading on my vendor ( gorath ) enough houses medium and heavy harves to cap out my Master Merchant Item limit.. ( that is about 4k ish right? ) So. while you are searching globally through all these items you have to wade through 4kish of MY items before your see anyone elses... Now.. Lets say Since I am already rich and really dont need more money I decide to price my items at say 1 cpu. so Heavies around 35k. you say well others can buy me up. I say I can build another 4k structures... Sure I wont be able to do this forever but how many archs will I drive from the profession in the process??( I wont do this but I thought I would throw this out for discussion purposes ( well I am loading my vendor with that many items ) )


I agree that finding certain items can be frustrating these day. I wish that there were better tools for those active merchants to let other Know where their goods are. I dont think that turning Vendors into a Pricing War Mechanic is that tool.




Imaka QuHurl

Im Not Dead Yet Careful I bite

Heed the warning

ravingbantha
Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:54 am
#26

I agree Dvnce... this can really hurt our profession more. It's the easist crafting profession to master... well mabey second after Artisan, and anyone witl about 2 million resources can easily master it in a few hours. With that we're going to see alot of people price gouge real bad.... got a few million crap metal, ore, and gemstone laying around? Grind out architect, make all the items you can and sell for the same 1-2 cpu you've been trying to sell at, but just haven't...


On the same not it will be interesting to see how this effecxt furniture sales, since not every architect is willing to stock furniture.
Page 2 of 3