Architect Archive
Thread: Sick of undercutting. Making a statement.
ZenDragonMLS
Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:38 pm
#14
If today you can't make a living because of "that undercutter down the street", I have a question for you: who did you blame yesterday?
The fact of the matter is that *many* of the architects who frequent these boards are absolutely NOT the lowest priced people on their server. They have an understanding of what *value* they deliver to their customers and what is a fair price to place on that value. They value their own time. They focus on having *fun*. Do we have established architects whofocus on having ahigh-volume / low price business model? Absolutely. Do we have established architect who charge a premium price but have some additional value that they provide? Sure.
I'll make some very absolute and perhaps some extreme statements here - read at your own risk:
1. If you are NOT selling enough to meet your operating expenses, then you need to look at how *YOU* do business and what customers you are trying to sell to - because there is obviously a mis-match there.
2. If you are not making as many credits as you *want* to, then perhaps you should examine your expectations. If your single metric for "success" is the amount of credits in your account, then you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.
3. You can ALWAYS figure out a way to make more credits, if that is your goal. No matter how successful you are, you can improve (e.g., advertise more, provide more consulting, perhaps *raise* your prices). What you might find is that you don't want to do those things due to time commitments, self-image, etc. That's fine - just know that you are choosing the limitations.
4. If you think that "price" is the *ONLY* component of a "business model", then it is - to you. Again, look to the established architects who are having a blast in the game and in the profession - do you think that they define their business model as "price"?
5.Is that"guy down the street selling heavy harvesters for 95K" the one who runs YOUR business or are you running your business? What could you do differently to provide customers value? Do you want to spend as much time managing resources as that guy? Are you having fun?
From my perspective, the person who blames their lack of business success on "the guy down the street" is in denial and is not willing to take responsibility for their own actions. Maybe - just maybe - YOU aren't doing something right in your business. And you know what is the *great* thing about coming to that conclusion? If you own your mistakes, then you also own the means to fix them.
So, are you the type who cries "lag" or "sun got in my eyes" when you get shot or drop the ball? If so, just keep blaming that undercutter for all your woes. It's the same thing.
Tunturi
Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:11 pm
#15
I agree anyone can set any price that want, thats just economics... But my point is people who cross server trade lots have an advantage in controlling prices over those who dont cross trade lots or those who can't find anyone to cross trade lots with.... All i'm saying is there should be a level playing field, and cross trading lots should be done away with...
long as the playing field is even, then kudos to those who play 8 hours a day and sell there stuff lower then everyone else.... I have no issues with it.. Besides if they ever get the Merchant Profession fixed right, then thats the way itssuppose to be, crafters sell for some profit over costs to merchants who then sell the product on there venderswith there percentage added on to the consumer.
What we need is a mining profession, so that way crafters can't mine there own materials, except for survey sampling. In order to use Heavy Harvesters you would need to become a Master Miner... This could actually be pretty cool... except for the control freaks/hermits who want to control everything themselves, but then they can spend another $15 a month and get another account to be a miner. This would limit how many static harvesters you see around from cross traders..
ZenDragonMLS
Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:36 pm
#16
Tunturi wrote:
I agree anyone can set any price that want, thats just economics... But my point is people who cross server trade lots have an advantage in controlling prices over those who dont cross trade lots or those who can't find anyone to cross trade lots with.... All i'm saying is there should be a level playing field, and cross trading lots should be done away with...
And my point is that the "demon" of cross-server lot trades is so much hot air. Back up the assertion that they are "ruining the economy" with some facts.
You know what? I have a "guy down the street" on Wanderhome that used to sell heavies for 20% less than I did. I have NO idea if he was using cross-server lot trades or not. And I don't care. *I* set my prices based on value. Obviously I'm doing something right because the customers are still buying from me. Maybe I just have rich stupid clients - who knows? (I don't think so though - some of the more well-known resource providers on my server buy from me.)
How far do you go to create a "level playing field"? Should SOE set a maximum amount of time per day that you can play a character, because some people can't play more than "n" hours a day? Maybe they should prohibit buying multiple accounts (hell will freeze over first). How about if they cap each player's bank account to a set amount - like 2M or 5M? How about they issue "seed money" to crafters that can't figure out how to sell things?
We have a great community here on the Architect forum. We try like hell to have answers to people about the "technical" aspects of the game ("how do I make BER13 harvesters"). We help people out with suggestions on things they could do differently in their business. I see LOTS of willingness to help and a lot of experience here. If someone comes in and says "how can I grow my business", people come through.
So if someone comes here and wants to *improve* - there is a lot of value. Frankly, if someone comes here and wants to whine about how tough life is and they can't make a living because of that "bad person" down the street, I don't know how to respond. Do you want a hanky? Do you want to pass legislation that that bad person won't be able to be bad anymore? If that's what you want, then I suspect that there are a lot of established architects who can't offer much help in your crusade.
Tunturi
Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:02 am
#17
So your telling me that haveing extra lots does NOT give an advantage over people with just 10 lots?
not everyone can find someone to trade lots with. So there just SOL.
ZenDragonMLS
Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:32 am
#18
I'm saying that every crafter needs to figure out how to get the resources to do their job. Some crafters don't need *quantity* so much as they need *quality* or *diversity*. For example, weaponsmiths need a lot of different "named" resources, and they must constantly look for those that are better than the ones they have. Architects typically need quantity above else.
So, in response to their *specific* resource needs, different crafters make individual choices as to how to deal with those needs. Here are *some* avenues that they can pursue:
1. Make agreements with existing or new friends to "use" their lots for things. For example, among my friends on Chilastra it isn't unusual at all for the combat-oriented characters to "hold" some factories or houses for crafters. Notice that this "use" can be static or dynamic. There are times in my guild where a crafter will say "I need some of the new spawn of XX - would one of you guys go put up a harvester on it at waypoint YY?" Many guilds have arrangements like this.
2. Buy a 2nd (3rd, 4th) account so they can *directly* control more lots.
3. Buy resources on the open market or employ "contract" miners to get the material. The distinction that I'd make between #1 and #3 is that #1 is typically over an extended period of time and is quite often based on a "trust" relationship that involves putting people on the admin list for things. I see #3 as strictly a "commercial" interaction.
4. Make agreements with total strangers to "lease" their lots. This can be similar in structure to #1, but it is strictly a commercial arrangement. For example, there are people (#1) where I would trust with my house or my factory, but the #4 people that I'm leasing from I might not trust with anything more expensive than a medium mineral harvester. There have been MANY statements in this forum about people doing this.
5. Same deal as #4 except the characters holding the lots don't play much (if at all) on your server. Because of that distinction, #5 is referred to as "cross-server lot trading".
Which ones of these are "illegal" or "immoral"? Which ones give a crafter an "unfair advantage"? Which ones are more prevalent?
Message Edited by ZenDragonMLS on 06-30-2004 09:35 AM
KRONOS1974
Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:28 am
#19
New player wont be able to do half that, let alone have the credits to upkeep a field. Those are just excuses for you to charge at a low price. But in FACT a new architect can not compete at all. If they cant get started they wont have the income to expand.
You have 250 harvesters- you can make harvesters at 1cpu- you can sell harvesters at an unreal low price- you dont buy a single unit of resource- you can mass produce items due to those 250 harvesters.
A new Architect - cant afford to set up a harvesting field- cant make harvesters at 1 cpu- has to buy most of his/her resources- cant sell at a low price because they just spent 3cpu to buy ore- cant mass produce items.
More excuses you guys make, is the more excuses the newer players cant get a foothold in the business.
On my server 2 armorsmiths got together. They have a huge amount of resources from their fields and cash from sales. They had a huge sale selling top grade armor for 100-200k a suit. This put new armorsmiths out of business, they could not compete with the stats let alone the price.
On my server some architect with 250-300 harvesters is selling heavies for under 80k, From people like this i have seen in Coronet, Theed, and Bestine " Architect going out of business- all prices reduced" just so they could make a few credits.
Is it fair to the newer players that just because you can charge 1cpu to make items they have no chance on the market, is it fair that you can bring in 2-20 million units of resources and they have to buy half of theirs?
Harvester fields were NOT meant to be. You are to have TEN lots per character- not 200+. You taking advantage of the system has caused many problems for new players.
I agree charging a lot for something isnt right- but selling real low is just as bad.
Even in RL our economy is balanced for the new businesses, they have laws to protect them and help them along. The new architects on our servers dont have that help. You should think about that before you sell at a real low price.
I care less on my server, i have made my millions, i keep a huge inventory, but its the new archs that are in trouble. I care about my profession and the people in it. Maybe you should also.
ZenDragonMLS
Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:41 am
#20
Maybe I've just been lucky. I have a thriving architect business on Wanderhome. I am in a large guild / city on Chilastra. On both of those servers there are "big name" elite crafters and there are people who have less of a name. There are people who have a large resource business and people who just sell small amounts of resources. There are people who sell their products for less than others, and people who sell for more than others.
I have yet to see anyone "forced" out of business by some huge monopoly. I've seen people evolve their businesses based on changing conditions. For example, when holo-grinding started a number of people who would not have been interested in gathering resources before that decided to harvest resources and sell to the holo-grinders. Once the holo-grinding stops, those people will be less likely to continue harvesting.
I have not seen any correlation between some "huge monopoly using cross-server lot swaps" and "undercutting the market".
It's actually been my experience that a great number of players value "convenience" more than "price". People want to be crafting, or they want to be hunting, or PvPing, or whatever. They don't particularly want to screw around with harvesters if they don't have to. They don't want to run around all over a planet to try to beat someone's price.
I put heavy harvesters on my vendor for 160K each and they go within a few days. Somehow or another I've never felt "threatened" by these shadowy "massive monopolies" that slice prices to the bone so they can drive other people out of business. I guess I've just been lucky.
KRONOS1974
Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:24 pm
#21
"I don't see a problem here."
There is no problem.
But id like to see you raise your prices after you have lowered them so much, when the Devs nerf the harvester fields 
And i dont see why people are more aware of the value of an item.
I would pay 130-150k for a heavy harvester, being new it may take me some time to get the cash. But those 10 heavies will make me millions.
If i paid 80-100k for those i feel i just ripped the architect off 
There is no one side to this. To each there own. Both sides have valid points, and present a strong arguement.
Who cares- this will go on for ever because there is no balance on any server.
And zen- your server isnt the only one out there. May be easy on your server but real hard to start up on another. I know i busted my ass for months to be a good architect. I still do. But i almost gave up because was so hard to get things going. But everything worked out, now i have one of the largest inventories on my server. I help new architects out that ask, but i still do not like people underselling the Value of an item.
And no my previous post wasnt directed at anyone person- i dislike getting into it because two people have different opinions.
Im a lover not a fighter
GogoDodo
Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:33 pm
#22
Tunturi wrote:
They sell the2 cpu in 100k stacks only, so only the rich can buy them, the poor are screwed having to harvest there own materials with just a few harvesters or buy off the bazaar for 5-6 cpu.... So the rich buy bulk and are able to sell there products cheap. There the ones that say theres no problem with the system now because there profitting from it while everyone is basicaly screwed because they can't compete with them.... As far as i'm concerned Cross Server Trading is CHEATING period... I would luv if the dev's banned the accounts of people cross trading
only partially true. I usually break my stacks into 50k 25k and 10k stacks for sale on the vendor, to accomodate customers. I don't do it all the time, cause its time consuming and exceptionally boring. But i do do it.
As for harvestor prices, i established my pricing scheme a month or so after release and have stuck to it. retail price is reasonable, with bulk rates being 10% cheaper. It gives me a bit of profit, i'm not trying to undersell people (not on purpose anyway), and gives my customers a feeling that they're getting a better rate for coming back.
G
Brantoc-Pax
Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:23 pm
#23
I tried raising my prices to 140k a couple weeks ago for heavies, and my sales dropped to near nothing.. On Scyllia, if I wanna keep sales up over the 100 unit a week level I MUST sell at 120k or lower.
ZenDragonMLS
Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:04 am
#24
KRONOS1974 wrote:
New player wont be able to do half that, let alone have the credits to upkeep a field. Those are just excuses for you to charge at a low price. But in FACT a new architect can not compete at all. If they cant get started they wont have the income to expand.
You have 250 harvesters- you can make harvesters at 1cpu- you can sell harvesters at an unreal low price- you dont buy a single unit of resource- you can mass produce items due to those 250 harvesters.
I assume you are using the generic "you" rather than specifically addressing me.
New players can do *all* of those things. New players start all the time, and either make friends or join existing friends. New players get BER4 harvesters and get them out on resources that they can either sell or use to grind. New players can hook up with existing architects and sell them walls. They can run artisan missions to feed their harvesters until either resource sales or product sales get to the point of sustaining them. New players can set whatever prices they want and sell things by figuring out how to offer customers value.
I did that last fall on Wanderhome. I'm doing that from scratch on the Test Center right now. On Chilastra my guild has old friends from other games start with us, and we also make friends with new folks. Those people have all of those options open to them.
I have yet to see a new architect on Wanderhome throw up their hands because they can't compete. I've seen some move from one city to another because they felt that the densitity of architects in their old city was too high. I've seen people decide to focus on only medium harvesters or only furniture because that was a business model that seemed to make sense for them.
I have seen a few people come into the Architect forum and say "I can't make a living". And I've seen the regulars here offer them a wide range of advice in terms of advertising, specializing, what to harvest and what to buy, etc.
BT-Trajan
Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:26 am
#25
I sell at whatever price I feel like. I have a price point that I have been selling at since I became an architect. I know it is lower than many other architects on Flurry. I know that my stock is occasionally purchased by competitors and resold at higher prices. I dont really care. I earn enough money to support myself, my friends, and the city of which I am the Mayor. I dont need any more credits I have my millions. I am also not a major source of architectural installations or houses any more. I make some of each and sell them at which ever price I have been selling at for the last year. The Flurry arch market has not fallen into ruins because I sell at less than 5cr/unit.I think I give away more items than I sell so I am always amazed that I earn a profit each week -- even after I support my city's financial shortfalls.
I run my business in the form and fashion that I choose. I sell at the prices that my customers like. I meet the demands of the market that I supply.
Most of all...I am happy as an Architect.
Cheers!
ZenDragonMLS
Thu Jul 01, 2004 12:34 am
#26
BT-Trajan wrote:
I run my business in the form and fashion that I choose. I sell at the prices that my customers like. I meet the demands of the market that I supply.
Most of all...I am happy as an Architect.
Cheers!
Great post!
And I suggest that there is someone else on his server that is serving a different group of customers with a different business model and charging different prices, who is also happy as an Architect.
So there are people selling low who are happy and successful and people who sell high and are happy and successful.
I don't see a problem here.