Architect Archive
Thread: A Miners Message: Sent To Thunderheart
Velisimner
Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:49 pm
#118
im just gonna shut up now. its apparent that the devs only listen to the majority which fromalot of points is the best thing to do.all i can really do it adapt my play to whatever the devs implement. do i agree that something must be done when it comes tocross-server lot trades, yes. do i have an idea for a change, not really.
Giamai
Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:50 pm
#119
just to be sure we are all on the same page here i'll reiterate a bit..paraphrasing from chatting with greenmarine and a couple of the other dev's at fanfest:
cross-server lot trading is considered an exploit, allowable within the game mechanic but still a bad thing for the server economies for the the reasons well stated by others.above..this involves creating characters onservers that are not played and therefore do not individually contribute to that servers economy.the lot "buyer" therefore picks up an unfair advantage over other players which is the definition of an exploit.
within server lot trading is NOT an exploit, forwell,thereverse of theabove argument. Renting out lots is considered completely acceptable, money exchanges hands and stays within the server ecoonomy.
owning multiple accounts is also not an exploit..actually they probably like that many of us fork over extra cash
the 2 possible means suggested (removing harvester admin and limiting lot numbers per account) are the only ones i heard mentioned at fanfest but there may be other means for eliminating or at least reducing the likelihood of cross-server trading.
There was no mention of removing admin on any other structure and that would anathema to the purpose of a multiplayer game, to interact with and share with others...such an idea would essentially kill guilds and cities as we know them where many buildings and not just city specific buildings are shared.
Lastly, and i have said this before, hologrinding has a mere 12 days left and there goes much of the current resource market, as someone else mentioned.Being a "miner" by trade will probably not be what it was 3 months ago. cross-server lot trading itself will probably become less of a problem since harvesting good resources requires significantly more work than harvesting anything on a high percentage spot, the previously favored method for resource dealers. as a consequence of the end of hologrinding, many of these seas of harvesters will probably go away and bring up the next big problem, what happens to all that extra grinding level resources? I vote destroy anything that architects and smugglers can't use (or anyone else who doesn't have the ability to experiment some of their crafted items) maybe even all of it with average stats below 500 lol
the real problem here is discussing means to address both these issues (xs resources and cross-server trades) without excessively penalizing honest players.
if asked to make a choice right this minute for how to eliminate cross-server trades, i would go with eliminating administration rights on harvesters. ok so now the people who share lots have some chores to do which is not fun and i have to make sure to log on my alts more often then i would otherwise but really it is not so high a price to pay compared with choking my business efforts by limiting my lot numbers to levels where i am no longer able to keep resource stocks in high enough quantitiesto remain functional.
i now return you to the arts
Vexor
Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:17 pm
#120
I agree, it's easy to find good resources spawn, but it's very hard to beat the people who drop their 40 on it first. So, you move along and hope to find another spawn of that resource.. oh look.. 50 more harvesters all with the same name. Having more than 1 account is one thing, you're actually sacrificing a bit of real money to obtain the extra lots. The devs shouldn't have to give you a reason why it's bad to swap, you keep talking about how heathly the economy is, I could give a rat's hairy anus if we inflate a few credits up or down, missions still pay out the same. My big argument about swapping is that is give you an obvious advantage over other players who want to mine resources for themselves. I can find 90% surveys all day long, but I can't find a place anywhere close to drop even 1 of my harvesters b/c someone has lots from 10 other galaxies and they drop on every, and I mean every viable spot anywhere close to a good resource spawn. It quite possibly does help the economy to have lots of supply to meet the demand, but I've been attempting to save up resources that I harvested for a few weeks so I can begin weaponsmith, and I can barely get a harvester down. I can stand to pay a few extra credits for a harvester or even more for some new composite, but I think if they do away with the swapping or implement certs (which would be excellent), then more people would be willing to run their own harvesters instead of buying resources from the few people on each server who monopolize it with their insane number of swapped lots.
EdOWar
Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:46 pm
#121
Vexor wrote:
I agree, it's easy to find good resources spawn, but it's very hard to beat the people who drop their 40 on it first. So, you move along and hope to find another spawn of that resource.. oh look.. 50 more harvesters all with the same name. Having more than 1 account is one thing, you're actually sacrificing a bit of real money to obtain the extra lots. The devs shouldn't have to give you a reason why it's bad to swap, you keep talking about how heathly the economy is, I could give a rat's hairy anus if we inflate a few credits up or down, missions still pay out the same. My big argument about swapping is that is give you an obvious advantage over other players who want to mine resources for themselves. I can find 90% surveys all day long, but I can't find a place anywhere close to drop even 1 of my harvesters b/c someone has lots from 10 other galaxies and they drop on every, and I mean every viable spot anywhere close to a good resource spawn. It quite possibly does help the economy to have lots of supply to meet the demand, but I've been attempting to save up resources that I harvested for a few weeks so I can begin weaponsmith, and I can barely get a harvester down. I can stand to pay a few extra credits for a harvester or even more for some new composite, but I think if they do away with the swapping or implement certs (which would be excellent), then more people would be willing to run their own harvesters instead of buying resources from the few people on each server who monopolize it with their insane number of swapped lots.
Honestly, this has not been my experience. I have had no problems finding good resource spawns (70+%), even on crowded planets like Naboo. Granted, sometimes it might take a while to find them, but I do find them and they almost always have no harvestors on them yet. Using only 8-9 lots for harvesting I'm able to collect 90% of the resources I need.
Eliminating cross-server lot trading (which it looks like they are going to do eventually) and harvestor certification will not even the playing field between you and a hard core elite crafter. I'm sorry, but casual players will always be at a disadvantage compared to power-gamers.
Elite crafters take pride in being the best. In order to stay the best, they need to have the best resources. Because the resource spawn system is so unpredictable, they need to stockpile huge quantities to ensure they have enough to last them. These elite crafters are already well established and very wealthy, and if they want large quantities of the best resources that spawn, they will find a way to get them!!! If they are unable to utilize cross-server lot trading, or are limited by some kind of idiotic harvestor certification system, then they will simply offer insane amounts of money to buy up everything they can. How would you like to see offers of 10, 20, 30, 50 even 100 cpu for in-shift resources of the highest quality? No up-and-coming crafter can compete against that. The elite crafters already posses the money to pay such ridiculously high prices---and they will do so if they feel it's necessary to remain 'leet'. And because they are the best-of-the-best, it will be easier for them to raise their prices to compensate.
All I can say is, careful what you wish for. Because if you get it, you may find it harder than ever to compete.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Message Edited by EdOWar on 06-10-2004 04:49 PM
Vexor
Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:49 pm
#122
I can whine 'til the cows come home about not being able to get a harvester down in time to get some of the good WS resources spawns, but it may always be this way. Even when they do makes changes to prevent lot swapping, there will STILL be tons of people working 'round the clock to get the best possible resources available at that point in the cycle. It won't change peopel longing to be only a miner, but it will even the odds a bit for people who want to have a little more realism and strategy in their gaming. That's all I have to say.
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:03 pm
#123
The above post is really the main reason I even brought all this up.
With the hologrind over....I dont NEED 300 + harvs anymore. They are paid up till augest and ill get all i can from them thats worth anything and let them burn brightly instead of bothering all those folks who dropped them for me.
I have 4 toons and acess to close to 11 more. I will simply remodel my business desgin and sell what i have stored.
If others then cannot meet demand in the Vaccume that was the Miner VOCATION (since in beta they got all snippy and discontinued the profession)then i will also sell my massive stored stockplies for 2 to 3 times what i do now. I willhave to to pay for the storage facilities i will have to upkeep to keep it all in.
If they would just figure out a happy medium (IE: allow say present harvestor admin operation within 450 meteres of a city hall [its a tad more complicated than this but i'm not going into that much detail on something they wont even do] there by allowing lvl 1 mining outposts to exist....the miners such as myself would choose the patth of least resistance and go along with it...and you can only place so many harvestors within a city foot print.) then the demand could be reached...as well as mitigating the over all dmg done by the "land grab"..and prices wont end up skyrocketing which will allow those already in the top 2% of the respective crafting markets to maintain their "monopoly" of quality over the rest of the up and commers.
Everyone forgets the Established powers already HAVE the capital....i8 spend 30 to 60 million every two months just to operate. Since they are shutting me down..now i have no reason to waste that kind of cash..and will have more than enough Capital to experiment and do things in ways the average joe wont be able to do for a very very very long time.
ZallusNuranxis
Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:23 pm
#124
I think you're still not following the "spirit of the game" by having alternate accounts. But that could be just my opinion
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
I suppose I should elaborate a bit based upon other comments in this thread.
Removing admin entirely from harvesters is a bad thing. Why? Because it seems to be a legitimate business practice to rent lots from others *on the same server*. I might want to pay a player X for asking him to dump his harvs in a particular location and adminning me, and X++ for managing the whole thing himself and just getting the resources to me. I don't have that option if I can't be admin'd on the harvester.
Further, it's terribly inconvenient. I operate 4 accounts, 3 of them with lots full of harvesters. If I had to log each toon in turn to manage the harvesters, it would be a huge pain in the butt. It's much better for me to run one of my toons around to all the harvesters to tweak 'em. Of course, I have to log toons on to place and re-deed, and that's fine.
Vexor
Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:02 pm
#125
I dunno, I've seen many, many "established powers" leave the game and never come back, and I'd say with a few of the established powers in the gaming industry readying to relase their new MMORPG's later this year, that there's going to be plenty of room in a currently stuffy elite crafting class here. I hope they nerf the hell out of harvesting, make some queries to see how many admin lists a player is on, set a max limit of say, 20 per toon, and require a master artisan certification or more to even drop the big boy heavies. No telling what they're going to do, and it'll probably be full of holes for businessmen like you to jump through, but you are a prime example of why they need to fix the problem. I know who has they money on my server, and they usually let you know it without asking. I can't remember if I said it before, but the best set of composite armor I've ever seen was made by someone with just enough resources to hand craft a few sets. He an "average joe" that quietly makes his living enjoying that craft, not corneringthe market. He has his 10 plots and land and uses them to effectively make a living and produce a higher quality armor than any other armorsmith I've ever seen. No, he doesn't have 200 sets of it on his vendor year round, but I respect him much more for how he plays the game.
ThothTheWise wrote:
The above post is really the main reason I even brought all this up.
With the hologrind over....I dont NEED 300 + harvs anymore. They are paid up till augest and ill get all i can from them thats worth anything and let them burn brightly instead of bothering all those folks who dropped them for me.
I have 4 toons and acess to close to 11 more. I will simply remodel my business desgin and sell what i have stored.
If others then cannot meet demand in the Vaccume that was the Miner VOCATION (since in beta they got all snippy and discontinued the profession)then i will also sell my massive stored stockplies for 2 to 3 times what i do now. I willhave to to pay for the storage facilities i will have to upkeep to keep it all in.
If they would just figure out a happy medium (IE: allow say present harvestor admin operation within 450 meteres of a city hall [its a tad more complicated than this but i'm not going into that much detail on something they wont even do] there by allowing lvl 1 mining outposts to exist....the miners such as myself would choose the patth of least resistance and go along with it...and you can only place so many harvestors within a city foot print.) then the demand could be reached...as well as mitigating the over all dmg done by the "land grab"..and prices wont end up skyrocketing which will allow those already in the top 2% of the respective crafting markets to maintain their "monopoly" of quality over the rest of the up and commers.
Everyone forgets the Established powers already HAVE the capital....i8 spend 30 to 60 million every two months just to operate. Since they are shutting me down..now i have no reason to waste that kind of cash..and will have more than enough Capital to experiment and do things in ways the average joe wont be able to do for a very very very long time.
TheOxygen
Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:10 pm
#126
Is there some sort of mental block in this forum? I just don't get it. I've clearly demonstrated that 95 percent of cross-server lot trades will cease to exist after the next publish, so why do people continue to complain?
Or is it just that some people are upset that they aren't the first people to drop their harvesters on the latest hot spawn? Is that the real issue? Well miner's (serious ones at least) worktheir arses off to be the first to a new spot and to harvest enough for all their customers. We're running a business just like any crafter. Why shouldn't the early bird catch the worm? If I'm on top of things and well-organized enough to deploy 40 harvesters within a few hours of a resource spawn, why shouldn't I be rewarded? The only difference between me and some crafter who comes by 6 hours later and starts whining that there isn't room for them is that I put more time and effort into my business then they were able to.
It seems that some people who play this game want everything spoon-fed to them. They seem to never want to have to deal with competition and that everyone should have access to everything. This is a game people. Games are competitive, challenging and fun. If someone is sinking so low as to whine about other people getting to great resource spots before them (and here's a tip, 95 percent of the time it's not because of static harvesters), then their whines will be falling upon deaf ears.
--Iaan K'Vork
Galaxy Resources
Goontown, Naboo (Lowca)
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:23 pm
#127
Vexor wrote:
Mental Block? You talk about your mining business and your customers like they are the same people who went to your middle-school graduation and wiped your butt as a baby(or teen). I don't think you can predict how many lot swaps will stop after the hologrind, and I almost beleive you'll keep most of your harvesters running until this game goes down, regardless of what you "say" you're gonna do. You're trading your land to another galaxy in return for someone else's land. That isn't strategy, that's clearly an exploit and no matter how you talk about your business model, anyone can use a calculator, the real business model you have is the negotiation to bring in more land that you were never intendedto have. Oh, so you spend a lot of time adding power and emptying harvesters, you're so much smarter than the rest of the player base, right? Pfft. This is a nice debate, but it's already over before you started it. It's on the list right after Combat Rebalance, Jedi Revamp, Jump to Lightspeed, and 30 other dev comsuming activities. Breathe easy, you have quite a while to be a miner.
You are confusing Oxygen with me. GoonSquad is a guild of over what man...300 folks? He uses his pa folks to Manually drop harvestors...I am the one who does lottrades =P
He still is able to drop 40+ harvs each shift I'd imagine if not more. be careful that you read up on which person is which befor assaulting someone. I'm the bad guy i suppose in this thread Lol He does thing "legit" if you care to look at what i do as an exploit.
As i stated reguardless I wont be reupping my harvestors after augest since it has been stated the Devs disapprove of the practice. I try NOT to go against what the Devs wish...but they must state their wishes..otherwise i try to think of ways to maximize the games potential to my best gain.
/bow
Vexor
Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:51 pm
#128
Ah, crap, yeah, I should check the name first /blush. Regardless, I do get a little teev'd about some things that happen in-game, but generally I try to keep in mind that we're all real people playing a game based on Star Wars. On that note, this is an escape from the harsh realities that some face in the real world. My escape is minor(no pun intended), others play much, much more than me. Yeah, I don't agree at all about the lot trading, but I do see that it keeps the economy fat and healty. There's always a drawback, though. Oh well, since I've effectively embarrased myself and misguided my flames, I'll bow out of this thread.
/targetOxygen
/kowtow
/targetthoth
/kowtow
ThothTheWise
Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:14 pm
#129
There is no reason to abandon your position from this thread. We ALL get in heated debates about things..it is what makes us Human. I respect your opinions..and try to place myself within your "virtual shoes", as it were, in order to better understand the subject as a whole.
Don't worry Lol
All opinions are what makes these games MMOs.
Message Edited by ThothTheWise on 06-10-2004 09:20 PM
Giamai
Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:23 pm
#130
someone has questioned why the dev's are opposed to cross-server lot trades, i put most of this on the artisan forums:
so here goes..paraphrasing from chatting with greenmarine and a couple of the other dev's at fanfest:
cross-server lot trading is considered an exploit, allowable within the game mechanic but still a bad thing for the server economies because this involves creating characters onservers that are not played and therefore do not individually contribute to that servers economy.the lot "buyer" therefore picks up an unfair advantage by having access to lots and therefore resources over and above whatother noncross-server lot tradingplayers can obtain. allwithout putting out anything to that servers economy but instead feeding into another (massive guild harvesting is perhaps an exception to that). by definition, anything that gives one select group of players an unfair advantage over others is an exploit. the real issue is why the economies of all the servers are so very skewed at the moment, cross server lot trading has been identified as one cause in the opinions of the dev's.like many problems in the game atm, this is caused indirectlyby everybody hologrinding imo.
within server lot trading is NOT an exploit, forwell,thereverse of theabove argument. Renting out lots is considered completely acceptable, money exchanges hands and stays within a single servers ecoonomy.
owning multiple accounts is also not an exploit..actually they probably like that many of us fork over extra cash
the 2 possible means suggested (removing harvester admin and limiting lot numbers per account) are the only ones i heard mentioned at fanfest but there may be other means for eliminating or at least reducing the likelihood of cross-server trading.
Others on this thread have mentioned this already but i will say it again.. hologrinding has a mere 12 days left and there goes much of the current resource market. Being a "miner" by trade will probably not be what it was 3 months ago. cross-server lot trading itself will probably become less of a problem since harvesting good resources requires significantly more work than harvesting anything on a high percentage spot, the previously favored method for many resource dealers. as a consequence of the end of hologrinding, many of these seas of harvesters will probably go away and bring up the next big problem, what happens to all that extra grinding level resources? I vote destroy anything that architects and smugglers can't use (or anyone else who doesn't have the ability to experiment some of their crafted items) maybe even all of it with average stats below 500 lol
the real problem for us the players is discussing a means to address both these issues (xs resources and cross-server trades) without excessively penalizing "honest" players and making those ideas known to the dev's.
if asked to make a choice right this minute for how to eliminate cross-server trades, i would go with eliminating administration rights on harvesters. ok so now the people who share lots have some chores to do which is not fun and i have to make sure to log on my alts more often then i would otherwise but really it is not so high a price to pay compared with choking my business efforts by limiting my lot numbers to levels where i am no longer able to keep resource stocks in high enough quantitiesto remain functional.
my 2 credits worth...i now return you to the arts