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Thread: Moderation in moderation

Hylidex
Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:25 pm
#1


Calandryll heard our requests, and SOE opened a forum to discuss forum and community relations issues. This is a wonderful step forward.


I'd like to start a dialogue about the moderation policies in these forums. If we can, I'd like to limit it to JUST POLICIES, and not specific moderators and moderator actions. I'm hoping for a genuine dialogue and not a flame war. I am hoping someone with authority will take notice and participate in the new tone of two-way communication that SOE seems to be adopting, and antagonizing the moderators would do nothing to help that communication.


This is not intended to be a formal request to change the policies, but discussion of the ideas behind the policies and reasonable alternatives. This being said, I'll begin with the discussion itself in my next message.

Message Edited by Hylidex on 01-21-2005 07:00 AM



Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
-6600, 4440, Theed, Naboo, Gorath
Hylidex
Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:54 pm
#2

I'd like to open discussion on the following policies:


Goodbye threads


Off-topic posts


Hijacking threads


Bumping threads


Please jump in and voice your opinions. I am not looking for agreement here, just dialogue to explore the issues.


1. Goodbye threads


No one wants to wade through a lot of "Goodbye and good riddance" type posts. We are here because we WANT to play the game, and we post because we think voicing our ideas and opinions might help make it a better game. This being said, the forum community is distinct from the in-game community. The friends we make in the forums are different from the friends we make in the game. If one of those friends must leave for one reason or another, it seems to me that, within certain guidelines, a good-bye message should be allowed. Preventing all such threads because some people use them as an opportunity to rant shouldn't result in a policy banning all such threads. To me, this would be like closing down the forums because some people flame here.


A good example would be when the bio-engineers lost their correspondant Talthizar some time back. This player contributed greatly both to the game and to the BE community. The "official" BE guide was picked up from the FAQ that he compiled (and helped to author). Many of the articles that he compiled are still in the BE FAQ. Through the grapevine we heard that he had to step down due to real life demands. But he never posted after that, so we never knew if he left the game entirely or merely left in his position as BE correspondant. In his case, a good-bye thread would have been important closure for the BE community.


So my solution would be to delete the rants, but not necessarily every good-bye thread. It isn't always possible to say goodbye in-game, especially since we never knew each other in-game. Also, a single message and /salute seems much more efficient than to try to /tell everyone who has ever posted in your favorite forum.


2. Off-topic posts.


Callandry warned that moderation would increase in the forums. While aggressive removal of offensive posts is certainly a good thing, I'd like to sound out a voice of restraint when it comes to off-topic posts.


A small amount of side chatter helps create a bond between regular posters on a forum. This is most true on the professions forums. I liken it to a scientific meeting or convention. While sharing technical tricks and secrets is perhaps the focus of the meeting, the social aspect of the meeting is just as important. It helps create a network of friends who can help each other through issues--especially issues concerning their profession. Getting to know these people helps one to differentiate between a mere whiner and a rational member of the professional community with a problem that needs to be solved.


With this in mind, I would opt to be tolerant of a degree of off-topic chatter in the forums, while helping to prevent them from being overly cluttered with such chatter and watching out for genuine hijacking.


I realize this is terribly subjective. However, I have participated in many forums in which moderators managed a good balance without much controversy.


Similarly, a friendly reminder to try to get back to the topic seems more appropriate than deletion or locking in this case.


3. Hijacking threads.


I hate it when threads are hijacked intentionally. It is an underhanded technique to shut down the discussion of the topic. Such an action is a direct barrier to freedom of expression. The current policy of locking such threads actually plays into the hands of the hijackers, by further squelching that expression. I would like to look for an alternative to that approach. No good alternative comes immediately to mind, so I'm open to suggestions.


4. Bumping threads.


I agree that bumps are a nuisance. They contribute nothing and merely clutter the forums. But, like hijacking, the current policy of deleting bumped threads punishes the original poster of the thread for the action of one of the responders. In many cases, the thread is essential, and the person who bumped it is acting foolishly.


The best example I can see of this is in a recent case in which the same person repeatedly bumped a stickied thread. Fortunately, no moderator action was taken against the thread, but in a worst-case scenario a thread that was important enough to the community to be stickied would have been deleted due to bumping.


In both 3 and 4, an alternative should be created to deal with the offender, not the original poster. I don't claim to know all the alternatives. But that's what discussions are for


I'm interested in other users' honest (and calmly presented) opinions on these and other moderator issues.


And as a final note, I think it is important to affirm that I appreciate the vast majority of moderator actions. This is definitely not a complaint. It is merely a hope to polish up the policies in a way that might make them better.



Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
-6600, 4440, Theed, Naboo, Gorath
GarVa
Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:14 pm
#3






Hylidex wrote:

I'd like to open discussion on the following policies:


Goodbye threads


Off-topic posts


Hijacking threads


Bumping threads


Please jump in and voice your opinions. I am not looking for agreement here, just dialogue to explore the issues.




1. Goodbye threads,


Actually we dont remove most of them, but if you mention that swg stinks (or other adjective) and that "I'll see you in " the post will likely get removed because they are not goodbye post but come join me or quit post which are not needed. There are at least 6 that I saw today that are still in place.


2. Off-topic post


We arent nearly as strict as we could be simply because there is so much of this, of course people are going to be mad when its "their" off topic post thats removed but its going to happen especially when its WAYYYYYY off topic.


3. Hijacking threads.


When we have a few dozen moderators this would be something we could deal with other than "locking" but when a good 1/3 or more of a thread has gone to pot, unfortunately there is no way we have the time to sit and sift through the rubble and pick it clean. As much as we would like to its just not going to happen. We DO however remove post if its just a few trying to spoil the apple, but we do always reprimand people that do this, which you usually do not see.


4. Bumping


The case you presented is rarely ever the case, and in those instances the thread is more likely to get "reprimanded" with a "please stop bumping" than it is to get locked. The only place bumping is "semi-ok" is the trade forums. If a topic is important enough to people they will discuss it, if there is no one discussing it then it doesnt need bumped, and if there wasnt so much of number 2 number 4 would not be a problem


This does not mean that we wont consider making a sticky thread to put links to topics that the community likes or that are good references so people wont have as much difficulty finding them. But a "top 10 places to drink" thread won't be included if we do make these







GarVa
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GrinInc

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:54 pm Post subject:






GarVa wrote:






Hylidex wrote:

I'd like to open discussion on the following policies:


Goodbye threads


Off-topic posts


Hijacking threads


Bumping threads


Please jump in and voice your opinions. I am not looking for agreement here, just dialogue to explore the issues.




1. Goodbye threads,


Actually we dont remove most of them, but if you mention that swg stinks (or other adjective) and that "I'll see you in " the post will likely get removed because they are not goodbye post but come join me or quit post which are not needed. There are at least 6 that I saw today that are still in place.


2. Off-topic post


We arent nearly as strict as we could be simply because there is so much of this, of course people are going to be mad when its "their" off topic post thats removed but its going to happen especially when its WAYYYYYY off topic.


3. Hijacking threads.


When we have a few dozen moderators this would be something we could deal with other than "locking" but when a good 1/3 or more of a thread has gone to pot, unfortunately there is no way we have the time to sit and sift through the rubble and pick it clean. As much as we would like to its just not going to happen. We DO however remove post if its just a few trying to spoil the apple, but we do always reprimand people that do this, which you usually do not see.


4. Bumping


The case you presented is rarely ever the case, and in those instances the thread is more likely to get "reprimanded" with a "please stop bumping" than it is to get locked. The only place bumping is "semi-ok" is the trade forums. If a topic is important enough to people they will discuss it, if there is no one discussing it then it doesnt need bumped, and if there wasnt so much of number 2 number 4 would not be a problem


This does not mean that we wont consider making a sticky thread to put links to topics that the community likes or that are good references so people wont have as much difficulty finding them. But a "top 10 places to drink" thread won't be included if we do make these









PA / City recruitment threads IMO are not in jeopardy of clogging up a community forum. I believe they provide more benefit then harm as players really don't take the time to read the short little bleeps in pages of a sticky. It offers a creative and colorful way to promote your organization.


They should be allowed to stay. People who come in to "ruin" enemies recruitment threads should be dealt with. I just feel as if we are rewarding the haters and harming the players.




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jphillips1868

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 468

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:02 am Post subject:

Hylidex,


Good topic and I think your focus is right one. One moderation policy I would like to see discussed is how "Goodbye" threads. There are several questions that should be address about these posts:


1. Are they appropriate at all? In my opinion, I believe they are in fact appropriate. The galaxy forums are a community where players are likely to know many of the other posters, either from an in game relationship or just from discussions on the board. The galaxies are SWGs virtual communities and whena member is leaving the community,a nice good bye post from a friendcan behelpful.


2. If the are, what is the approriate place for them. As you can see from my discussion above, I believe these posts belong in the galaxy forums and not in GAT, unless that person considers themselve a GATer, if you take my meaning.


3. What should the guildlines on the content for these posts. This is a bit of a thorny issue and I definitely can see where SOE has some legitimate concerns. A respectly goodbye to friends in SWG community is one thing, but a flame post is another.SOE should moderate such a post like any other. Like most things there is a grey area as well. How do you treat a respectly post that is to the effect goodbye friends, and while I'm not trying to trash the game, these are the reasons I've decided to leave. I would think that kind of post gives the Devs some good feedback on why their players choose to leave. Of course those kind of post can easily turn into flames as well so perhaps its a tough call.


I suspect that some players believe that SOE has a less than noble motive in closing such posts--to hide thewaves of mass cancellations(when they occur, the 2 I thought were pronounced were the post-CU delay back in July/August 2004 and the WoW/EQ2 Exodus in November/December 2004). Now I'm not saying I necessairly believe that, but ifthe SOE policy is to delete all goodbye posts as opposed to just the excessivley negative, trolling, and flame ones, I must admit it looks suspicous.


What does everyone think? Garva, care to weigh in on the reasons SOE locks deletes these posts.


Thanks.

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Hylidex

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 582

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:08 am Post subject:

I agree with you in all but number 2. I think the place these threads belong is in the place the poster normally posts the most. After all, it isn't saying goodbye to in-game friends so much as forum friends. For me, it would be in my BE profession forum (although I have no intention of saying goodbye any time soon), since that is where I post 80-90% of my messages.


But I agree 100% with your approach: Flames should be moderated as flames. Goodbye flames against the game in general are still flames, and can be deleted for that reason.


Allowing a single respectful goodbye message by a user to the friends he has made on the forum only enhances the forum experience, IMHO.


Thanks for joining the discussion. I have a lot of hope that it will turn out to be a fruitful one.



Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
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jphillips1868

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 468

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:23 am Post subject:






Hylidex wrote:

I agree with you in all but number 2. I think the place these threads belong is in the place the poster normally posts the most. After all, it isn't saying goodbye to in-game friends so much as forum friends. For me, it would be in my BE profession forum (although I have no intention of saying goodbye any time soon), since that is where I post 80-90% of my messages.





That makes sense to me.I guess I identify with my server forum the most and didn't reallythink aboutthe profession forums, but I could see where you are coming from on that. I guess what I meant mainly was that the Galaxy forums should be an acceptable place to make goodbye threads and that they shouldn't be limited to the GAT, not necessarily that there aren't other appropriate places. But I didn't really make that point very clear.


I could however, see the devs viewingthe profession forumsas a more substantivethan the galaxy's forums which are less focused, and thus a goodbye is off topic.

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jphillips1868

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 468

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:32 am Post subject:






Hylidex wrote:


4. Bumping threads.


I agree that bumps are a nuisance. They contribute nothing and merely clutter the forums. But, like hijacking, the current policy of deleting bumped threads punishes the original poster of the thread for the action of one of the responders. In many cases, the thread is essential, and the person who bumped it is acting foolishly.





I partially agree with you here. I think bumps can be nuisance when they are excessive, in term offrequecy or thelength of time youtry keep the post at the top. The classic example of where the bump is helpful toothers is theauction post on a trade forum. Bydefinition,an auciton for isan finite period of time, soyou areonlygoing to be cluttering the forum for a limited periodof time. The positive aspect is that abuyer looking for an itemgets to see its on sale without wading through manypagesof posts to find all active auctions. An the item being auction mayvery well be of extreme value to the buyer. The other example is a PA recruitment thread,for similar reasons, althoughthey are probably lesscompelling for the PA recruitment thread.


My rule of thumb is one bump a day for no more than a week for PA recruitment threads and one bump a dayfor the lenght of anauction for an auction thread.
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Hylidex

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 582

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:55 am Post subject:

First off, GarVa, I want to thank you for joining in this discussion. It is wonderful to get your insights and perspectives.




GarVa wrote:






Hylidex wrote:

I'd like to open discussion on the following policies:


Goodbye threads


Off-topic posts


Hijacking threads


Bumping threads


Please jump in and voice your opinions. I am not looking for agreement here, just dialogue to explore the issues.




1. Goodbye threads,


Actually we dont remove most of them, but if you mention that swg stinks (or other adjective) and that "I'll see you in " the post will likely get removed because they are not goodbye post but come join me or quit post which are not needed. There are at least 6 that I saw today that are still in place.


2. Off-topic post


We arent nearly as strict as we could be simply because there is so much of this, of course people are going to be mad when its "their" off topic post thats removed but its going to happen especially when its WAYYYYYY off topic.


3. Hijacking threads.


When we have a few dozen moderators this would be something we could deal with other than "locking" but when a good 1/3 or more of a thread has gone to pot, unfortunately there is no way we have the time to sit and sift through the rubble and pick it clean. As much as we would like to its just not going to happen. We DO however remove post if its just a few trying to spoil the apple, but we do always reprimand people that do this, which you usually do not see.


4. Bumping


The case you presented is rarely ever the case, and in those instances the thread is more likely to get "reprimanded" with a "please stop bumping" than it is to get locked. The only place bumping is "semi-ok" is the trade forums. If a topic is important enough to people they will discuss it, if there is no one discussing it then it doesnt need bumped, and if there wasnt so much of number 2 number 4 would not be a problem


This does not mean that we wont consider making a sticky thread to put links to topics that the community likes or that are good references so people wont have as much difficulty finding them. But a "top 10 places to drink" thread won't be included if we do make these








My first impression here is that the moderator practices are a lot more reasonable than the policies. I think it is overly restrictive to have policies carved in stone. A conversation is an extension of a person's humanity, and by that requires human judgment in deciding what should and should not be acceptable. Even in something as restrictive as a court of law, specific guidelines limit the type of allowable conversations between an attorney and a witness, but even those are usually allowed to continue to a certain degree if no one seems to be manipulating the facts. This should be even moretrue in the type of casual conversation that should be present in the forums.


This being said, I should admit that I have only seen moderators intervene a handful of times, and in all but one I was glad they did. In that one, I was ambivalent. The conversation was off-topic, but it was very friendly, and it acted as a sort of bump, keeping the thread alive for a little longer without creating a real nuisance. I could see how it would be locked, but I was sad to see that the topic was also lost in the process.


My specific comments:


1. I think the practice you described is exactly what I would love to see. I don't think saying "goodbye" in and of itself is the problem. It is an issue of how it is said. Thank you for clarifying this.


2. I may have to think about this a little bit. An admonition to go back on topic seems more resonable to me than deleting off-topic posts unless the posts are composed in such a way as to rile people.


3. The lack of manpower adds a new dimension here. I still feel that a lock punishes the victim. I'm trying to think of a good alternative here. It may take a while. Maybe some of the readers here will have alternative ideas.


4. I admit I've never seen an actual case in which a thead was locked due to bumping. I agree with one of the messages above that there are a couple of good reasons for a moderate degree of bumping. However, I'd prefer to read something in them besides "/bump." In an auction thread, "Only 5 hours left" might be better than just "/bump." Personally, I would rather read something off-topic than the word "bump," but from the sound of things, an off-topic post is more likely to get locked than a bump.


I'd be interested to know what others think.


Thanks again for joining the discussion. It adds a lot more depth to it.





Hylidex Lightstrider
AFS Outfitters, League of all Factions and Species (LAFS)
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Hylidex

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:00 am Post subject:






GrinInc wrote:




PA / City recruitment threads IMO are not in jeopardy of clogging up a community forum. I believe they provide more benefit then harm as players really don't take the time to read the short little bleeps in pages of a sticky. It offers a creative and colorful way to promote your organization.


They should be allowed to stay. People who come in to "ruin" enemies recruitment threads should be dealt with. I just feel as if we are rewarding the haters and harming the players.







I agree with you here. In community and trade forums, bumps seem more reasonable than in most forums. I also agree with the above message that recommends the bumping be done in moderation (once a day or so for a week per announcement might be a good guideline).


Something else to consider would be to post updates rather than bumps. Say something about the number of people who have been added this week, some recent guild activity, or just an extra detail or two. It makes for more interesting reading.



Hylidex Lightstrider
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Flatfingers

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 626

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject:

Great thread, Hylidex -- thanks for kick-starting this discussion. If nothing else, it has provided GarVa with the opportunity to clarify the Official Positions on the behaviors you described, and that is nothing but helpful for all of us.


Not that it's going to stop me from adding my own 2cr worth, of course.


1. Goodbye threads


These kinds of messages really come in two flavors: the angry"kiss my backside" version, and the long"more in sorrow than anger" version.


The first kind (as GarVa pointed out) is worthless and can safely be removed. The latter kind... well, personally, I don't mind these.


Most of the goodbye messages I've seen that fall into this latter category have actually been well-thought-out and constructively worded discussions of how they see SWG and how they think it could be improved. Often they raise interesting points that others either haven't considered or didn't feel stronglyenough about to mention, but which are still valid observations about SWG's strengths or weaknesses.


It's unfortunate that some readers don't distinguish between these thoughtful messages and the shorter-and-whinier kind, and reply with some variation on "just shut up and leave." But these detailed farewell messages are actually helpful, and I would suggest that they not be deleted.


2. Off-topic posts.


I agree with you here. Sometimes threads wander, but that doesn't mean the whole thread becomes worthless. And as you point out, sometimes a little bit of freedom in discussion makes not onlyan excellent social lubricant, but may inspire someone to a usefulobservation that wouldn't have occurred otherwise.


If a thread gets completely off-topic, I'd add a warning that it's about to get closed down and then see what happens. After that, lock it and move on.


3. Hijacking threads.


Agreed again. Assuming it's a clear case of deliberate hijacking, penalize the hijacker, not the person whose otherwise useful thread got hijacked.


4. Bumping threads.


This one's a little tricky. Really aggressive bumping ought to be discouraged, but the occasional bump to a truly helpful or thought-provoking message (that isn't stickied) actually provides a useful service. At best, it gets people thinking constructively; at worst, it answers a question that would otherwise cause duplicate threads to be created.


I'm OK with leaving this to the individual moderator's good judgement. It's a subjective thing, but at the point where it becomes clear that someone's being abusive, it's pretty obvious that that's the case. At thatpoint, action is appropriate.


Let's watch and see how this works. If enough people decide it's a problem, we can always ask about it again later.


--Flatfingers

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Epitaxial

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:22 am Post subject:






Hylidex wrote:


I'd be interested to know what others think.


Thanks again for joining the discussion. It adds a lot more depth to it.







go look at the EQ2 forums sometime - in particular the Mistmoore section. That forum was put under a lock-down becuase it got so crazy. This is the kind of moderation we need on the SWG forums [but as it has been said - lack of proper manpower makes it difficult to provide that kind of moderation]. Since anyone can read the forums, it would make sense to keep them relatively clean.


I don't mind goodbye threads- but typically they turn into "see you in [insert game here]".. or "I'll be leaving soon because [insert company name] sucks at customer service!"... etc.


Off-topic posts= GAT. I don't care if you play on that server, your post does not belong there if it's not related to gaming ON that server. However, we continue to see posts by the same people who don't seem to have the concept, intelligence, and maturity to post in the correct forum.


Hi-jacking - don't get rid of the post, get rid of the hi-jacked post. If it becomes a problem, get rid of the hi-jacker.


Bumping - if it's an important post [ie: events, recruitment, etc], then bumps are ok. However, more times than not, off-topic spam posts are bumped by the same people who spam the forums in the first place.








Raum Kjar
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Swordmage1

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject:

At the risk of fanning more flames, I need to point out that the attempt to control the mob on the test forums is just making it harder rather than easier for those of us that want to find information to get to it. It has become a challenge to a portion of the community to fight the thread locking and this results in a flood of what you are trying to stop and forces all of us to wade through masses of thread locking posts in Admin and Dev tracker looking for any official posts that actually contain released information.


On a nicer note, it is good to see names from my EQ and EQII days (soon to start again, methinks).



Hoshoa (TK/CH), Cesti(Crafting), and Korant(TK/Swords) of Kettemoor
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SWG_Miriam

Joined: 22 Sep 2022
Posts: 138

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject:

the simplest thing the moderators can do is systematically banning the troublemakers starting off-topic, flamebait threads. just slap them with a 7 day ban until the NGE is released. they're not contributing anything to testing anyways, and sanity will be returned to the forums.


thread locking is stupid because the off-topics posts are still there cluttering the real posts.






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... Before the dark times ... before the NGE.


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