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Thread: A Vision of Player Smuggling Contracts and more (updated October 18 2005)
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Glzmo
Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:27 am
#1
Seeing as the developers still have failed to come up with a good plan to allow smugglers to smuggle for other players, I have felt I waited long enough to write my ideas about the profession I have been playing ever since launch in July'03 and have finally come up with the followingvision on how to make it work:
1. High-end contraband
In addition to the current low-end contraband like sliced weapons, sliced armor as well as low-level spices, all High-end loot will be labeled high-end contraband and thus be illegal tocarry and bring from the planet it is found to another planet. This loot will include, but not be limited to untuned lightsaber components (pearls, crystals), legendary loot weapons, nightsister armor segments, tusken Robes and other loot items that would be considered illegal in this point in time in the Star Wars Universe, like holocrons, padawan braids and spice as well as rare resources, other rare loot and more.
+ The inclusion of real contraband will make smugglers useful for other players
+ Classifying high-end loot as contraband will make high-end loot even more special
In addition to the current low-end contraband like sliced weapons, sliced armor as well as low-level spices, all High-end loot will be labeled high-end contraband and thus be illegal tocarry and bring from the planet it is found to another planet. This loot will include, but not be limited to untuned lightsaber components (pearls, crystals), legendary loot weapons, nightsister armor segments, tusken Robes and other loot items that would be considered illegal in this point in time in the Star Wars Universe, like holocrons, padawan braids and spice as well as rare resources, other rare loot and more.
+ The inclusion of real contraband will make smugglers useful for other players
+ Classifying high-end loot as contraband will make high-end loot even more special
2. Contraband scanning crews
Contraband scanning crews inside Starport arrival locations as well as the regular police and faction type NPCs that are currently present in cities will all look for this contraband in the scans. Also, there will be ships in space that perform the same duties as the ground NPCs.
Once a smuggler is scanned, there is a chance that the contraband will be found (explained in section 3.). If high-end contraband found, the smuggler is attacked by the contraband scanning crew and their allies. Once the smuggler is incapacitated by the scanning crew or his ship destroyed/disabled the high-end contraband will be confiscated.
Contraband scanning crews inside Starport arrival locations as well as the regular police and faction type NPCs that are currently present in cities will all look for this contraband in the scans. Also, there will be ships in space that perform the same duties as the ground NPCs.
Once a smuggler is scanned, there is a chance that the contraband will be found (explained in section 3.). If high-end contraband found, the smuggler is attacked by the contraband scanning crew and their allies. Once the smuggler is incapacitated by the scanning crew or his ship destroyed/disabled the high-end contraband will be confiscated.
If low-end contraband is found, the smuggler is fined and attacked, but the item is not being confiscated.
+ Possible confiscation of items will make people think twice before running around with contraband without the help of a smuggler
+ It will make possession of high-end loot items even more special
+ Possible confiscation of items will make people think twice before running around with contraband without the help of a smuggler
+ It will make possession of high-end loot items even more special
3. Smuggler skill will dictate the chance to avoid contraband from being found
The chance to avoid contraband being found on a smuggler will be dependant on the smuggler’s underworld skill. Here is the chance for the smuggler to avoid contraband:
Novice Smuggler: 20% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld I: 30% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld II: 40% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld III: 50% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld IV: 60% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Master Smuggler: 90% chance to avoid contraband from being found
+ This will underscore the need for master smugglers to smuggle a valuable contraband item for players
The chance to avoid contraband being found on a smuggler will be dependant on the smuggler’s underworld skill. Here is the chance for the smuggler to avoid contraband:
Novice Smuggler: 20% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld I: 30% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld II: 40% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld III: 50% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Underworld IV: 60% chance to avoid contraband from being found
Master Smuggler: 90% chance to avoid contraband from being found
+ This will underscore the need for master smugglers to smuggle a valuable contraband item for players
4. Creating and accepting a player smuggler contract
Players with high-end contraband will be able to give the contraband to a smuggler via the secure trade window. Once the trade of such contraband is initiated, a new smuggler contract window will pop up. In this Window, the client will be able to state several terms of the contract. A window similar to the travel window will appear where the client will choose the destination planet and city the item will have to delivered to. The city will have to have a Starport for it to work. The client will also have to choose a time limit (may last from several minutes up to a week) and enter the amount of money he or she would like to pay the smuggler for the delivery. Once both sides have agreed, the trade will take place, a waypoint created in both the smuggler’s and client’s datapads and the time limit will begin to tick down.
+ This will allow the smuggler and his or her client to work out the exact terms of the smuggler contract
+ It will increase immersion and interaction
Players with high-end contraband will be able to give the contraband to a smuggler via the secure trade window. Once the trade of such contraband is initiated, a new smuggler contract window will pop up. In this Window, the client will be able to state several terms of the contract. A window similar to the travel window will appear where the client will choose the destination planet and city the item will have to delivered to. The city will have to have a Starport for it to work. The client will also have to choose a time limit (may last from several minutes up to a week) and enter the amount of money he or she would like to pay the smuggler for the delivery. Once both sides have agreed, the trade will take place, a waypoint created in both the smuggler’s and client’s datapads and the time limit will begin to tick down.
+ This will allow the smuggler and his or her client to work out the exact terms of the smuggler contract
+ It will increase immersion and interaction
5. Lay-low timer
After the smuggler arrives in the target city, he or she will have to stay within the city limits for a lay-low timer of 20 minutes until he will be allowed to access the smuggler deposit terminal (see section 6. ) of the city and deliver the contraband to it. This timer will be halfed to 10 minutes, if the smuggler launched into space (not using the travel option at the starship terminal!) with his ship and hyperspaced and landed at the delivery planet, therefore risking being scanned by authorities and rival smuggler NPC ships in space.
In this time, the smuggler may be scanned several times and has to hope to avoid those scans. Simply camping the terminal will not do, as it will be patrolled by police and faction type NPCs, so it will be best to keep a low profile and avoid potential scanning crews before heading to the deposition terminal.
Once the 15 minutes are up, the smuggler will be able to access the deposition terminal.
+ The lay-low timer will prevent smugglers from being able to just run to the terminal as fast as they can to deliver the goods and put them in a little danger
+ Halfing the lay-low timer when actually using the ship to smuggle will encourage smugglers to fly their ship and thus increase immersion in the Star Wars Universe
After the smuggler arrives in the target city, he or she will have to stay within the city limits for a lay-low timer of 20 minutes until he will be allowed to access the smuggler deposit terminal (see section 6. ) of the city and deliver the contraband to it. This timer will be halfed to 10 minutes, if the smuggler launched into space (not using the travel option at the starship terminal!) with his ship and hyperspaced and landed at the delivery planet, therefore risking being scanned by authorities and rival smuggler NPC ships in space.
In this time, the smuggler may be scanned several times and has to hope to avoid those scans. Simply camping the terminal will not do, as it will be patrolled by police and faction type NPCs, so it will be best to keep a low profile and avoid potential scanning crews before heading to the deposition terminal.
Once the 15 minutes are up, the smuggler will be able to access the deposition terminal.
+ The lay-low timer will prevent smugglers from being able to just run to the terminal as fast as they can to deliver the goods and put them in a little danger
+ Halfing the lay-low timer when actually using the ship to smuggle will encourage smugglers to fly their ship and thus increase immersion in the Star Wars Universe
6. Smuggler deposit terminal and paper forgery
There will be a smuggler deposition terminal placed in every city with a starport.
When the smuggler delivers the high-level contraband to the terminal, there will be an option to ‘forge registration papers'. This will remove the contraband status of the item and register it to a certain player. That way, everybody will only have his high-end loot smuggled and equipped with forged registration papers once and never again. Only if the registered item is sold or tradedto somebody else, it will be turned to contraband again (it will be high-end or low-end, just like it was before) andthe new ownerwill have toonce againcontract asmuggler to smuggle it to another planet and forge the registration papers afterwards to make it legal again.
There will be a smuggler deposition terminal placed in every city with a starport.
When the smuggler delivers the high-level contraband to the terminal, there will be an option to ‘forge registration papers'. This will remove the contraband status of the item and register it to a certain player. That way, everybody will only have his high-end loot smuggled and equipped with forged registration papers once and never again. Only if the registered item is sold or tradedto somebody else, it will be turned to contraband again (it will be high-end or low-end, just like it was before) andthe new ownerwill have toonce againcontract asmuggler to smuggle it to another planet and forge the registration papers afterwards to make it legal again.
There will be a menu (similar to the guild member menu in guild management terminals) that pops up that will let the smuggler register the item to two names: The name of the client that gave him the contract, second the name of the smuggler.
If the smuggler chooses to forge the registration papers to register the item for the client, the item will be transferred into the smuggler deposit terminal and the credits agreed to upon acceptance of the contract will be transferred from the client to the smuggler immediately. Only the client will be able to pick up the now legalized contraband from it now and will receive an e-mail about a package being delivered for him including a waypoint to the smuggler deposit terminal.
If, however, the smuggler chooses to register the item to his/her own name, the now legal item will stay in the smuggler’s inventory and the smuggler will not receive any monetary reward.
+ Forgery ofhigh-end and low-end contraband registration papersto make it legal will only call for a smuggler once for each high-end contraband item unless it is sold
If the smuggler chooses to forge the registration papers to register the item for the client, the item will be transferred into the smuggler deposit terminal and the credits agreed to upon acceptance of the contract will be transferred from the client to the smuggler immediately. Only the client will be able to pick up the now legalized contraband from it now and will receive an e-mail about a package being delivered for him including a waypoint to the smuggler deposit terminal.
If, however, the smuggler chooses to register the item to his/her own name, the now legal item will stay in the smuggler’s inventory and the smuggler will not receive any monetary reward.
+ Forgery ofhigh-end and low-end contraband registration papersto make it legal will only call for a smuggler once for each high-end contraband item unless it is sold
+ It will make smugglers useful againif somebody decides to resell the contraband
+ It will allow smuggler keeping the items and selling them to the highest bidder (including the former client) and thus increase immersion
7. Failing to fulfill player smuggler contracts
Once a smuggler fails to fulfill his or her contract, either by not delivering the legalized item to the designated Smuggler deposit terminal within the time limit agreed upon, getting caught by NPC scanning crews while smuggling and thus having the contraband confiscated or forging the papers to register the item to the smuggler’s own name and thus stealing it, the client will get a mail that will state that the Smuggler [Name] has failed to fulfill his or her contract and that you may now use the command /placeplayerbounty to put a Bounty on his or her head.
In addition, a smuggler who steals items that way will undoubtedly build a bad reputation in the player community for doing so which will ruin his business in the long run.
+ This will allow clients to contact the smuggler first to perhaps come to terms before placing a bounty
+ It will make smugglers think hard before attempting to steal an item
Once a smuggler fails to fulfill his or her contract, either by not delivering the legalized item to the designated Smuggler deposit terminal within the time limit agreed upon, getting caught by NPC scanning crews while smuggling and thus having the contraband confiscated or forging the papers to register the item to the smuggler’s own name and thus stealing it, the client will get a mail that will state that the Smuggler [Name] has failed to fulfill his or her contract and that you may now use the command /placeplayerbounty to put a Bounty on his or her head.
In addition, a smuggler who steals items that way will undoubtedly build a bad reputation in the player community for doing so which will ruin his business in the long run.
+ This will allow clients to contact the smuggler first to perhaps come to terms before placing a bounty
+ It will make smugglers think hard before attempting to steal an item
8. Placing a Bounty on the unhonorable smuggler’s head
All players will have access to the new command /placeplayerbounty , which will be explained to in the mail they receive.
Using the command will pop up a window with the names of the smugglers that have failed to fulfill a contract for you and you have not placed a Bounty on yet. The double-crossed client will now be able to chose the name of the smuggler and click ok. Subsequently, a new Window will appear where the player will be able to type the amount of credits to put on the smuggler’s head. This amount can be as high as the credits the player has in his or her possession. After confirming the amount, there will be a small window where the mission giver will be able to describe why he placed the bounty on his head. After doing this, a confirmation window with a summary will appear. Upon confirming everything, the amount of credits input as a bounty will be deducted from the player’s account and a new player bounty mission will appear on the bounty hunter terminals for exactly that amount of credits with the description of why the bounty was placed. The rest will be handled just like a regular (Jedi-) player bounty is handled now.
When a Smuggler is killed by a Bounty Hunter, the player smuggling mission he may be on a the time will still be valid, but it’s payout will be reduced by 75%.
+ This will discourage smugglers from botching contracts
+ It will increase immersion and incorporate the classic Star Wars Theme of Smuggler vs. Bounty Hunter
All players will have access to the new command /placeplayerbounty , which will be explained to in the mail they receive.
Using the command will pop up a window with the names of the smugglers that have failed to fulfill a contract for you and you have not placed a Bounty on yet. The double-crossed client will now be able to chose the name of the smuggler and click ok. Subsequently, a new Window will appear where the player will be able to type the amount of credits to put on the smuggler’s head. This amount can be as high as the credits the player has in his or her possession. After confirming the amount, there will be a small window where the mission giver will be able to describe why he placed the bounty on his head. After doing this, a confirmation window with a summary will appear. Upon confirming everything, the amount of credits input as a bounty will be deducted from the player’s account and a new player bounty mission will appear on the bounty hunter terminals for exactly that amount of credits with the description of why the bounty was placed. The rest will be handled just like a regular (Jedi-) player bounty is handled now.
When a Smuggler is killed by a Bounty Hunter, the player smuggling mission he may be on a the time will still be valid, but it’s payout will be reduced by 75%.
+ This will discourage smugglers from botching contracts
+ It will increase immersion and incorporate the classic Star Wars Theme of Smuggler vs. Bounty Hunter
9. Hidden smuggler compartments
Existing Clothes, armor, multi-passenger ships (can hold more than one hidden compartment), vehicles and droids will be upgradeable with smuggler’s compartments by masters of the respective crafter profession (Master Tailor for clothing, Master Armorsmith for armor, Master Artisan for vehicles, Master Droid engineer for droids).
These compartments will hold only one item and will increase the chance to successfully avoid a contraband scan for the item in it by 5%. This bonus will be applied no matter if the person using the compartment is a smuggler or not. So a non-smuggler will have 0%+5%=5% chance to avoid contraband in the smuggler compartment from being found, a novice smuggler 20%+5%=25% chance to avoid contraband from being found, a master smuggler will have a 90%+5%=95% chance to avoid contraband from being found and so on.
Existing Clothes, armor, multi-passenger ships (can hold more than one hidden compartment), vehicles and droids will be upgradeable with smuggler’s compartments by masters of the respective crafter profession (Master Tailor for clothing, Master Armorsmith for armor, Master Artisan for vehicles, Master Droid engineer for droids).
These compartments will hold only one item and will increase the chance to successfully avoid a contraband scan for the item in it by 5%. This bonus will be applied no matter if the person using the compartment is a smuggler or not. So a non-smuggler will have 0%+5%=5% chance to avoid contraband in the smuggler compartment from being found, a novice smuggler 20%+5%=25% chance to avoid contraband from being found, a master smuggler will have a 90%+5%=95% chance to avoid contraband from being found and so on.
+ This will increase immersion by having smuggler compartments
+ It willallow crafters to contribute something special to smugglers
+ It will allow smugglers to greatly increase their chance to smuggle high-end contraband
10.Trading non-tradable items
Master Smugglers will be able totrade any inventory/datapad item/schematic that isotherwise non-tradable (including biolinked/character specific items).This will beanotherinstance of"illegal moving of goods" (aka smuggling ). With the non-trade reward and loot items possibly coming with the expansion,sinceit's said you can'tslice the new loot/reward weapons anyway.
Master Smugglers will be able totrade any inventory/datapad item/schematic that isotherwise non-tradable (including biolinked/character specific items).This will beanotherinstance of"illegal moving of goods" (aka smuggling ). With the non-trade reward and loot items possibly coming with the expansion,sinceit's said you can'tslice the new loot/reward weapons anyway.
+ It would make many people happy
+ This will give smugglers another purpose
Message Edited by Glzmo on 10-18-2005 01:52 AM
Glzmo
Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:28 am
#2
Like all my posts from my "Vision" series of ideas, this post is a work in progress and I plan on updating it to improve on it when new ideas come up and to reflect major changes in the game amongst other reasons to change the post.
I would like to know your thoughts and suggestions so I can improve on the 'vision', so feel free to chime in and discuss this vision in a constructive manner!
ValiantHalibut
Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:45 am
#3
Considering the grief some players give smugglers now who randomly get a speed slice or a low damage slice, I'm leary of any system where permanent loss of high-end items can occur. Also, the element that tends to be in possession of the largest number of such items - and, consequently, would most need smugglers - also tends to be the most annoying to play with. Think about the most annoying powergamer you've met in game and now imagine what your life would be like if you were the smuggler who lost his uber, looted, adked weapon.
I do like your ideas conceptually, but the unfortunate thing is that they assume a certain level of maturity from other players. Sadly, it seems as though that's the one thing that cannot be assumed.
I do like your ideas conceptually, but the unfortunate thing is that they assume a certain level of maturity from other players. Sadly, it seems as though that's the one thing that cannot be assumed.
SmugglinZane
Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:31 pm
#4
You've got some great ideas usually, but there's an all important factor that makes it unable to be implemented and therefore cannot be ignored.
It allows for theft. Developers have stated in the past that they will not allow one player to steal another player's items. They consider it griefing, and to some extent, I think they're right.
While the basic premise is decent, there's a lot of loopholes. May I suggest something like this:
Utilising the instanced starport idea of another player (I'd give you credit for it if I could remember who you are right now), create a new travel system. The travel system would work similar to the current system, except all players would have to leave from a "docking bay". In order to get to the landing pad, you have to travel through customs. Customs will be another terminal or NPC that allows access to the docking bays (passing through customs gives you a ticket allowing you to pass through the doors, but expires if you leave the starport.)
Here is where a contraband and tariff system is pivotal. Something as simple as a tax on all resources or all resources with stats over 900 could be taxable as well as player crafted weapons and armor. All players will have the option of "claiming" their goods and paying a tax on them. Contraband will never be claimable however, and I do not think sliced items should be considered contraband but be taxed at a higher level. Any taxable item not claimed but is found (all players will have a minimal chance of getting through customs without being caught) generates the tax plus a fine. Any contraband discovered in customs gets confiscated and the player recieves a fine.
Player smuggling comes into play with a mission NPC all players can us to generate a mission. The player purchases a container from the NPC, places their items in the container, then speaks with the NPC again to generate the mission. The container is unopenable by any player other than the one that purchased it. The player chooses a destination, a price offered for the job, or an open bid (similar to the bazaar where the lowest bidder for the job is awarded the contract). Master Smugglers (it needs to be Master Smugglers so that people don't have their items confiscated byNovice Smugglers failing the checks because his skill level is too low)can speak with the NPC and select from a list of contracts. When the Smuggler reaches the destination for the contract, he speaks with another NPC contact that claims the container from his inventory. The player recieves an email, speaks with the NPC and claims his reward. (Another thing here I wouldn't mind would be an option for the player to generate a contract for a specific Smuggler.)
PC Bounties. Along with high level NPC Smuggling missions generating PC bounties, I would like to see that be the penalty for failing to complete the contract. Not only will it give the player some satisfaction when his stuff is confiscated, but it will be a viable punishment for failing a high risk mission.
The reason I favor this (and it really is a compilation of ideas by lots of players) is because it takes two problems out of the equation. The problem of griefing by a Smuggler stealing someone's items and the problem of "needing" a Smuggler to move your goods since you can always choose to pay the tax on your items.
The other positives are another money sink for the economy and a better reflection of planetary control, contraband, and war time aspects of life.
The real key to it is a contraband/tariff system. The PC Smuggling missions allow for a player to not need to sit at the starport waiting for a Smuggler, but does not preclude them from forming a contract with a Smuggler without using the system.
DragonSnack
Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:03 am
#5
NIce Idea but..
The I got it here now I have to wait around for 15 minutes doing nothing!
Just exactly what am I supposed to be doing in that 15 minutes of time?
I don't know about you but I am not willing to just lay low for 15 minutes.
I got it, It got to the planet, now I want to deilver it and collect my money.
If I take 4 contracts a day then I have to sit around for an hour a day not playing. This is a big probelm.
Your plan does not offer any incentive to the player that wants to attempt anything other than the easest contracts.
One failure gets you attacked.
Include some method to redeem yourself with the shipper. Perhaps running another contract for free for the shipper removes the potential for being attacked.
After all even the bestSmugglers get boarded
Firestem
Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:49 pm
#6
I like this idea to a certain degree. It will give smugglers something more to do. But loosing an extremely high end loot due to a failing to hide the item is really bad. I agree for the one who said about the power gamer having a smuggler fail his mission. How do you think the smuggler would feel?. So maybe there could be an alternative.
Maybe the smuggler could bribe the npc to let him go. Or if not that the weapon would be confiscated for a few days then reappear back in the inventory later. But loosing a great weapon is just to hard. More so for the smuggler cause he's the one who last had the posession of it.
Just things to think about and i hope you consider.
MolCaldon
Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:48 pm
#7
fuse together SmugglinZane's and Glzmos idea, and there we are! Or you, as im not smuggler... 
KloudRunner
Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:26 am
#8
I agree, why cant the devs combine both ideas into a workable formular. The only issue wouldbe with checking every single players inventory for contraband and that would take up to much resources and take quite awhile from whats been said before. The tax idea is cool and would create a need for a Smuggler to Smuggle the resources off planet. But only if the cost to hire a smuggler was cheaper than actualy paying the tx otherwise whats the point right ? I think theyt should add the cantina style searches into the starport areas but have it every 5 mins so if your lucky you can avoid a search. The starports do need expanding i think, maybe the main ports can have several shuttle bays and and entrance to an instanced docking bay with your own ship tho i dont know how much resources that would take up.
I love the idea of combining the 2 ideas to create a true and workable player smuggling system
Sengis
Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:10 am
#10
Actually I would be happy with "legally" bidning Ingame contract period.. Writable and formable by the parties in volved, all characters get an electronic signatuer, and hey presto, Enforceable by the empire or the Rebellion.. or perhaps inthe future other aligned factions... Or maybe even Players.. Allowing Bounties to be raised.. On non commercial contracts, such as "deliver item b to point a" or "make x of A by Z time.." A nfree form contract could be written up and if necessary csrs, can be brought in to adjudicate..?
Bromar
Mon Mar 28, 2005 1:57 pm
#11
Like the things already stated, I have to disagree. here are my reasons
1. Smuggler is smuggling "object", he gets pulled over etc incapped and the item is taken...ummm oh there just went my items
2. theft..no more saying
3. This would put a huge damper, more than there is being put on it already on teh economy.....everyone needs smuggelrs to transport things...oh lookie...no smugglers!.......done and said
Qece
Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:19 am
#12
The whole concept I like a lot and it's very different to a lot of views that I've seen and heard of.
A few things though....
Confiscation of items? Can't do that ever. Only if there is a way to retrieve said item can you implement such a system.
Standing around for 15 minutes. I like it a lot, adds realism and the money gained will outweigh the 15 minutes "wasted".
Upon the trade and the contract agreement said item is then tagged as a smuggled item by the game. If at the end of the time given for delivery the item hasn't been delivered by the smuggler the owner of the item has it automatically retrieved into his inventory. That then does not allow the smuggler to trade it to another player and it doesn't allow for any situation where the smuggler cannot log in for RL reasons thus taking it away from another PC.
Smuggled items under contract get a tag placed under their description so that if the Smuggler tries to trade it off to another PC it is noticeable and people will know that on a certain day that item will be taken from them.
Smuggled items under contract cannot be destroyed, renamed or interacted with in any way. That saves smugglers using that 30k resource deed or whatever.
abiz
Sun May 08, 2005 2:15 pm
#13
lot of good ideas, but proberbly too open to@%&$s...
i dont really buy that issue with theft since it is allready there when slicing...
i believe that the "/placeplayerbounty" would be exploited way to much to be a fun factor...
i think that smuggling should be a sort of buff, as in you buff a players smuggling abilities for 20 minutes or maybe just the contraband item.
That way you would kill the theft issue, and save the crashing players from all the travelling...
i like the idea of a "lay low" as a "TF" where a smuggler would be even more"Transparent" so to speakto contraband scans,
and would really have to lay low
Great ideas lets hope the devs hear us this time
lets hope the devs hear us this timeMessage Edited by abiz on 05-08-2005 02:19 PM
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