Rifleman Archive

Thread: Damage Mitigation/Damage Ranges

klawlegna
Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:50 am
#1

From what I've been reviewing on the Correspondent forums the devshave beenadjusting most creature damage ranges. Range will get larger as the creature gets more powerful, etc... Just a heads up.



Keldarin

We did adjust damage ranges when we put in the Damage Mitigation. It is only really effective for high level creatures though. You won't see any changes in damage ranges before level 30 but it does increase after that and the higher the level the greater the range. Very high level creatures will most likely not be able to be tanked at all without good damage mitigation.



DAMAGE MITIGATION

Good thread on Pistol Forum:

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=29071

Message Edited by klawlegna on 12-09-2003 10:05 AM



--------------------------------------------------------------
Sudelaya - Rage of Carkoon
"The Villain of Kettemoor"


zelerich
Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:42 am
#2

Does this go for our pets too if we are PvP and a CH?
ITOAO
Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:32 am
#3

Klaw could you post something else or direct me to other examples of damage mitigation. It doesnt seem to make any sense. I read the post in the pistoleer forum. must be dumb because i still don't get how that helps us. It just seems to me like they are reducing the overall damage that weapons do across the board until you reach master. Then it gets better but not much. Please could someone explain a bit more.



VODO FALLS RESIDENT
Dantooine
Proud Winner- Nym's Scavenger hunt.
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AND a fallen AT-AT.



rscheibler
Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:31 am
#4

Yeah, Im having trouble understanding it too.





Syfer Ma'Orah
Director / CCO, Imperial Secuirty Bureau
Twilight's End, Naboo

Scout|Ranger|Armorsmith|Squad Leader|Bounty Hunter


BlasterForHire
Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:33 am
#5






ITOAO wrote:
Klaw could you post something else or direct me to other examples of damage mitigation. It doesnt seem to make any sense. I read the post in the pistoleer forum. must be dumb because i still don't get how that helps us. It just seems to me like they are reducing the overall damage that weapons do across the board until you reach master. Then it gets better but not much. Please could someone explain a bit more.





it's not "until you reach master"... it's "when you reach master". i.e. if you shoot at a master of a ranged profession, they're going to have damage mitigation 3.. which will reduce the damage range of your weapon by 60%.


therefore, weapons like the laser rifle, with a huge spread between max and min damage, are going to be hit hard. a common laser is 40-400 on my server. a 60% reduction is 40-184. that's the damage applied to a master ranged opponent.


basically, the system will be setup so that you will never hit a master ranged opponent with a topend shot from your weapon. the top 60% of your damage output is eliminated.


klawlegna
Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:21 am
#6

Rifleman (a.k.a. ranged professions) get ranged mitigation abilities now.


Hope these two great threads help.


DAMAGE MITIGATION


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=29071


COMBAT CHANGES


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=14605#M14605

Message Edited by klawlegna on 12-09-2003 01:22 PM



--------------------------------------------------------------
Sudelaya - Rage of Carkoon
"The Villain of Kettemoor"


klawlegna
Tue Dec 09, 2003 11:25 am
#7


Raphayl: I wanted to show you some new information about the new patch that impacts Fencers. There is more than this, but it either doesn't impact Fencers directly, or was already known.


http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=fencer&message.id=10348&page=1







1. Added to-hit bonus for melee vs. rangedweapon attacks


This is a replacement for the damage multipliers and a sub-feature for the damage mitigation addition (detailed below). If you use a ranged weapon against a melee combatant, you will be easier to hit.







2. Damage Mitigation


Damage Mitigation is an ability to reduce the maximum potential damage output inflicted by your opponent. There are two forms... Ranged Mitigation and Melee Mitigation. As Fencers, we have Melee Mitigation.


There are three levels of Mitigation that you progress through on your path to Master Fencer.



  • Mitigation 1 = 20% damage range reduction
  • Mitigation 2 = 40% damage range reduction
  • Mitigation 3 = 60% damage range reduction

What this does is reduce the MAXIMUM damage a melee-category weapon can do to you, not the whole scale.


For example, if a melee weapon is listed as 100-400 (Average damage of 250), and you have Mitigation 3 (60%), the damage is NOT reduced to 40-160. (Average damage of 100)


What is reduced is the offset of the maximum damage from the minimum. On the example weapon above(100-400), the base (minimum) damage is 100, and the maximum damage is offset by an additional +300. It is this +300 that is reduced by 60%, bringing it down to (300*0.4)= +120. Adding this +120 to the base damage we get a new maximum damage of 220.


Now the weapon's effective damage range is 100-220.(Average damage of 160)


This will not have a tremendous impact on weapons that do not havemuch offset between the minimum and the maximum damage values, such as lower-end mobs and player weapons. It was not designed to target these attacks (although it does help).


What thisis designed to do is to make it more practical for melee players to tank higher end mobs... instead of absolutely requiring creatures for this. The higher end mobs have a MUCH higher offset between their minimum and maximum damage values, so this mean a melee profession player will become a far more viable tank against such opponents.


In other words, the Devs have heeded to our wishes to claim a significant combat role during high-end encounters, whereas before all you needed was a creature, a medic,and some ranged players. Melee were optional, and often ineffective. This fixes that.


Oh, ranged professions get a ranged version of this that does the same thing against ranged attacks.


I'm very excited about this change!







3. HAM Changes


The Developers are working on an experimental change to the way HAM is use for specials. They plan to bring it out in stages so each part can be examoined for validity. Just looking at any one part can lead to exaggerated expectations both positive and negative, so until the entire system is revealed it might be hard to see the end result.


Phase One:


Now the HAM cost from executing a Special Attack Move is not directly deducted form your current HAM pools. Incoming damage form an oppoent's attack still is, however. Instead, HAM costs are deducted from the maximum value of the HAM pools. If the cost of a Special Attack Move is greater than your current HAM pool's maximum, then it cannot be performed. This means that you cannot incapacitate yourself through the use of Specials.


Example: You begin with 1000 Health. You execute a special that costs 100 Health which reduces your maximum Health to 900. You are hit with 200 Health damage which reduces your current Health down from 900 to 700, but your Maximum remains at 900. You then execute another 100 Health special and it brings your maximum down to 800, but your current remains at 700. You execute another special (a big one) that costs 300 Health. This brings your maximum Health from 800 down to 500. Since 500 maximum Health is less than the 700 you previously had in current Health, your current Health mustobviously be dropped to the new 500 maximum.


What this accomplishes is the alieviation of both incomming attacks and performing specials to be eating away at your current HAMs in the same manner, and will permit you to avoid making yourself as vulnerable as the way HAMs used to work. ... this is a good thing.


Ok, now for the second part of the equation.Some of you will like this, and some of you will not. At this time I must reinforce the knowledge that none of this is set in stone, and subject to tremendous change as the need arises.


The "damage" (if you can call it that) to your maximum HAM pool size.... is NOT healable via Stimpacks. A Stimpack can still heal damage done to you by an attack, but only up to your current maximum. This is going to require a change in strategies for many of us that used the occasional Stimpack. (And any of you Doctor/Melees out there that were constantly boasting and bragging all over the place about how effective you were in melee combat... guess where that just got you?) In fact, part of this change was to allow us combat professions to be able to be effective without requiring a SWG PhD. Just a wee bit of Medic ability is going to take you a long way, since you won't we worrying about healing Specials costs.


Hold on... before you panic... that's not all. We aren't left this way. The maximum value of you HAM pool can be restored! In fact, it regenerates. Not at the same old creepy crawly rate that your regular healing regeneration provides. The damage from specials is on it's own timer completely independant of the regular regeneration rate. In fact, the damage form each special you perform is on it's own regen timer.


To find the regeneration rate, take the total HAM cost of your special (to that pool) and divide it by 25. This is the regnerate rate "per second." I put "per second" in parenthesis because the "ticks" may not be exactly on the 1second interval... but the total regeneration rate is the same. In short, regardless of how much HAM a special uses, it will be completely restored within 25 seconds of when performed that special.


This is a very significant regeneration rate... and the nice thing is... you didn't require Doctor buffs to have it.


The good: You no longer have to either BE a Doctor or have access to Doctor buffs to be a competant melee profssion. Yes, Doctor buffs will give you a larger HAM pool which helps. But by reducing the negative impact of performing special on your HAM, and the greatly accellerated rate at which it regenerates, we can last much longer in combat before requiring any healing.


The bad: You must now be more observant of the use and timing of specials. You cannot bring yourself down to a bare minimum HAM and pop a Stim to make it all better. When you get a reasonable ways down in maximum HAM, you will want to fall back on regular attacks for a few seconds to allow your maximum to regenerate. You will want to time the use of your big Stims to when you maximum HAM pool is higher rather than lower, and have some small Stims on hand for when your maximum HAM is lower. Not that big of a "bad"... we just have bene presented with a system that relies a bit more on strategy than it did before.







4. Extended Range


Extended all weapon ranges under 10 meters out to 10 meters. This should diminish the number of "out of range" messages you get due to server-client synch issues. Woot! This should be a nice boon to us Fencers!





Please place your comments on these changes below. I will ask that if you have not experienced these changes first hand that you do not go berserk with your comments on this. It's very hard to envision the reality of this new potential "proposed" system jsut through the description. I know that when I first heard it described I paniced. It took quite a bit of discussion with the Developers intentions, and some clues as to where they are going with this before I could see the beauty in this system. My hopes are that I described it here well enough that I don't inspire that same panic.


Please include with your comments whether your opinions are strickly from your understanding of the concepts I detailed here, or if you went to TC and experienced them first hand. I'll be relaying this information back to the Developers.




--------------------------------------------------------------
Sudelaya - Rage of Carkoon
"The Villain of Kettemoor"


Waste93
Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:26 pm
#8

When this new HAM system goes in I guess I'll have to migrate a great deal of my stats. Since to heal my Mind pool I won't have to have the high secondary stat since it's on it's own timer anyways. I won't be using my mind pool to shoot. Same would go for most of the secondary stats.Though since fewer MOB's target mind as opposed to the others it may not be a major problem.


Another side effect of this change will be a decrease in the amount of use of spice or food. All those people using Muon Gold to recharge faster so they can keep shooting. It will no longer be neccessary. Since it's on independent timer set to fully heal in 25 seconds. Have the Chefs heard about this change yet? Don't think they are going to like it.




Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
BlakeIeldan
Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:39 pm
#9

So, if you have melee migitation it works against melee weapons, and if you have ranged migitation it works against ranged weapons, right?



________________________________________________
Sralak Ieldan
meyer1215
Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:04 pm
#10






BlasterForHire wrote:


it's a small difference, since most creature damage is on a very tight distribution (small range), and therefore won't really be significantlly affected by mitigation.


not that i ever understood why a rifle can do 40-400, but a graul does 350-360. it hits for near max or max.. only two choices? ugh. would love to hear the dev explanation for that





Not sure if you saw the top message in this thread, but the devs said when they are adding this they also increased the ranges for the higher end (30 and above)creatures.


Maybe we need to start a premptive call for the min damage of the t-21 to be increased. Maybe we will have a better chance to have it increased vs having the max damage increased.


--Rorrimot

ITOAO
Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:50 pm
#11

That post Klaw was exactly what my small brain needed. Thank you. I have to say that was a very welcome surprise. I asked for a more in depth explanation and got what i asked for, I expected to have a ton more questions after any info was posted at all. I don't have many now. I am surethings about thenew HAM systemwill probably change. The idea of more strategy involved is most certainly welcome. This seems like a great way to slow combat down and make you consider the shots you take and this will make the role ofWOUNDS much more significant.I feel they were not thatmuch of a factor in battle. (to me at least)I assume that if you were wounded in battle the normal max pool that would regenerate would only regenerate up to the point that the wound has affected you ? Alsosomeone saidsomething about aallowing you to hit yourself. That would be funny. If this helps people use pets less then i applaud it. I am not totally against them but ido think its out of hand, the amount of creature handlers is crazy. Anyway thanks again.



VODO FALLS RESIDENT
Dantooine
Proud Winner- Nym's Scavenger hunt.
Only City with an X-wing fighter
AND a fallen AT-AT.



LLJK_Griz
Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:22 pm
#12

This is a TERRIBLE change for riflemen and carbineers because it means our damage output will be massively reduced while having minimal effect on BH/commando/pistoleer and their already-overpowered specials.


Laser rifle40-396 (218 avg) vs migitation 3 = 40-182 (111 avg)


Laser carbine 37-269 (153 avg)vs mitigation 3 = 37-130 (83.5 avg)


DX2 pistol 96-154 (125 avg) vs mitigation 3 = 96-119 (107.5 avg)


Post-nerf scatter pistol 118-148 (133 avg) vs migitation 3 = 118-130 (124 avg)


Flamethrower 445-840 (642.5 avg) vs mitigation 3 = 445-603 (524 avg)


A rifleman or carbineer will do LESS DAMAGE PER SHOT than a BH with scatter pistol and equal or less damage than a pistoleer with DX2, even though rifles and carbines are supposed to do slower, higher damage attacks than pistols.


This system is fatally flawed, and if implemented as-is, will result in several classes becoming essentially useless in PVP.




POKEY THE PENGUIN SIG REMOVED BY GARVA BECAUSE "Just because you are crafty enough to get around the technicality of it being a .jpg or .gif does not mean it is not an image, it is not ascii art, it is an image" SO HERE IS MY NEW SIG.
HUGE UGLY SIG
ITOAO
Tue Dec 09, 2003 4:28 pm
#13

I believe it is going to affect all classes. Not just rifleman.



VODO FALLS RESIDENT
Dantooine
Proud Winner- Nym's Scavenger hunt.
Only City with an X-wing fighter
AND a fallen AT-AT.



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