Rifleman Archive
Thread: Keldarin is reviewing AP
VolstedGridban wrote:
Hold on to your hats, folks. It'll be a doozy. If my upcoming post doesn't convince 'em, then they can't be convinced.
Unfortunately, Volsted, I think this sums it up. It's almost patently obvious that the Devs are living and working in SWG Wonderland, where things work exactly the way they figured they thought it might possibly should work regardless of what the guys who originally designed the system and those who currently use the system say ... 
If this goes through, without any other significant changes (like reducing our HAM cost by 75%), it will be the single-biggest nerf SOE has foisted upon us, and without any good reason other than, "Oh, that's how I thought it was supposed to work in the first place".
This is EXACTLY like the much-feared "crafting nerf" that almost took place with the last patch. They realized that things weren't working as they had originally designed, and decided to change the rules mid-stream, regardless of the fact that nothing was broken for game balance.
This also has some major implications for a few rare types of armor construction (the "new, intended" formula elminates the 50% reduction merely for having AR1 vs. AP0), so I'm doubly concerned.
Klawlegna, now is your time to step up to the plate and fight for us. PLEASE go to bat for us on this ... it will severely hurt us and our viability.
Old system: If AP-AR=negative then Damage = base*0.5^N*(1-resist) (where N is AR-AP)
If AP-AR=posative then Damage = base*1.25^N*(1-resist) (where N is AP-AR)
New system: If AP-AR=negative then Damage = base*(1-resist*1.25^N) (where N is AR-AP)
If AP-AR=posative then Damage = base*(1-resist*0.5^N) (where N is AP-AR)
Base Damage for the following tables is 200.
Old System Damage
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 25 23 20 18 15 13 10 8 5 3 0
-2 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15 10 5 0
-1 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
0 200 180 160 140 120 100 80 60 40 20 0
1 250 225 200 175 150 125 100 75 50 25 0
2 313 281 250 219 188 156 125 94 63 31 0
3 391 352 313 273 234 195 156 117 78 39 0
New System Damage
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 200 161 122 83 44 5 0 0 0 0 0
-2 200 169 138 106 75 44 13 0 0 0 0
-1 200 175 150 125 100 75 50 25 0 0 0
0 200 180 160 140 120 100 80 60 40 20 0
1 200 190 180 170 160 150 140 130 120 110 100
2 200 195 190 185 180 175 170 165 160 155 150
3 200 198 195 193 190 188 185 183 180 178 175
Direct Difference New-Old
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 175 138 102 65 29 -8 -10 -8 -5 -3 0
-2 150 124 98 71 45 19 -8 -15 -10 -5 0
-1 100 85 70 55 40 25 10 -5 -20 -10 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 -50 -35 -20 -5 10 25 40 55 70 85 100
2 -113 -86 -60 -34 -8 19 45 71 98 124 150
3 -191 -154 -118 -81 -44 -8 29 65 102 138 175
Percent Damage Increase over Old System
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 700% 615% 509% 373% 192% -62% -100% -100% -100% -100%
-2 300% 275% 244% 204% 150% 75% -37% -100% -100% -100%
-1 100% 94% 87% 79% 67% 50% 25% -17% -100% -100%
1 -20% -16% -10% -3% 7% 20% 40% 73% 140% 340% Inf
2 -36% -31% -24% -15% -4% 12% 36% 76% 156% 396% Inf
3 -49% -44% -38% -30% -19% -4% 18% 56% 130% 354% Inf
Conclusion:
The effect gives a substantial boost to Low AP guns as they can now attack High AR targets and do much more damage if the resists are less than 50%. If they are more than 50%, they were doing so little damage in the first place that the reduction is not of any merrit.
On High AP weapons the effect is mixed. At Low resists, the reduction is painful; at high resists, the bonus is very helpfull. The end result seems to be that the already painfull advancement that riflemen suffer will get much worse as it is the learning riflemen that fight low resist creatures, while the Master riflemen are much more apt to go after the big game where the change in the armor system will benefit them. Pistol users will have an even easier time of their advancement as they will get a substantial damage boost. While at the high end they receive very little detraction.
Which system is better is subjective based on what people's tactics are and what they hunt.
Pistols users will most likely love it. A modification that might be more realistic would be to leave the negative AP-AR system as it currently is (old system) while adopting the new system for posative AP-AR. This would make the multiplier 0.5 for all cases and not leave the low AP guns doing 0 damage against high resist creatures.
As I hunt mostly low armor/low resist creatures since I'm not a master, I prefer the old system, others might not. /shrugs
Halleck RAnger/Rifleman : Ahazi
Base Damage for the following tables is 200.
Old System Damage
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 25 23 20 18 15 13 10 8 5 3 0
-2 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15 10 5 0
-1 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
0 200 180 160 140 120 100 80 60 40 20 0
1 250 225 200 175 150 125 100 75 50 25 0
2 313 281 250 219 188 156 125 94 63 31 0
3 391 352 313 273 234 195 156 117 78 39 0
New System Damage
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 200 161 122 83 44 5 0 0 0 0 0
-2 200 169 138 106 75 44 13 0 0 0 0
-1 200 175 150 125 100 75 50 25 0 0 0
0 200 180 160 140 120 100 80 60 40 20 0
1 200 190 180 170 160 150 140 130 120 110 100
2 200 195 190 185 180 175 170 165 160 155 150
3 200 198 195 193 190 188 185 183 180 178 175
Direct Difference New-Old
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 175 138 102 65 29 -8 -10 -8 -5 -3 0
-2 150 124 98 71 45 19 -8 -15 -10 -5 0
-1 100 85 70 55 40 25 10 -5 -20 -10 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 -50 -35 -20 -5 10 25 40 55 70 85 100
2 -113 -86 -60 -34 -8 19 45 71 98 124 150
3 -191 -154 -118 -81 -44 -8 29 65 102 138 175
Percent Damage Increase over Old System
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 700% 615% 509% 373% 192% -62% -100% -100% -100% -100%
-2 300% 275% 244% 204% 150% 75% -37% -100% -100% -100%
-1 100% 94% 87% 79% 67% 50% 25% -17% -100% -100%
1 -20% -16% -10% -3% 7% 20% 40% 73% 140% 340% Inf
2 -36% -31% -24% -15% -4% 12% 36% 76% 156% 396% Inf
3 -49% -44% -38% -30% -19% -4% 18% 56% 130% 354% Inf
50x1.25x1.25 is multiplying the damage instead of reducing the resistance. In this case 100 damage before the resist & AP calc would become 78 damage
50%x0.75x0.75 is reducing the resistance. In this case the reist would effectively be 28% making the 100 damage become 72.Adifference of 6% in the target's favor.
So if what you're saying is true that what was meant by "damages the armor" is really reduces the effective resistance to the higher AP weapon's damage type, then the correct formula is the 2nd one I listed above.
This is how it would play out between a Laser Rifle and T21 both doing the same damage in one shot to the same piece of composite armor at 50% energy resist.
500 damage shot after the fix
Laser does 500(1-(0.5x0.75)) = 500(1-0.375) = 500x0.625 = 312.5
T21 does 500(1-(0.5x0.75x0.75) = 500(1-0.28125) = 500x0.71875 = 359.375
500 damage shot as it happens now
Laser does 500x1.25x0.5 = 312.5
T21 does 500x1.25x1.25x0.5 = 390.625
As you see this fix wouldn't effect shots done with a weapon that's 1 AP higher than the target's AR, but it would reduce the damage of a weapon that's 2 or 3 AP higher than the target's AR. In the case of 2 higher we see a loss off 8% (390.625-359.375 = 31.25 less damage 31.25/390.625=0.08 or 8%).
T21 does 500 damage against a mob with 50% energy resist but no armor rating
With fix = 500(1-(0.5x0.75x0.75x0.75) = 500(1-0.2109375) = 500x0.7890625 = 394.53125
Current = 500x1.25x1.25x1.25x0.5 = 488.28125
The difference is now 488.28125 - 394.53125 = 93.75 / 488.28125 = 0.192 or 19.2% less damage than current.
Mind you these are shots fired without using any specials. Add those multipliers to the calculations and we see a drastic reduction in damage for using a weapon more than 1 AP over the target's AR.
I've done plenty of tests and the combat spam has been right on with what the damage is before the calculations modify it to give the floaty number. In the case of targets that are vulnerable to the damage type the floaty and combat spam have matched exactly. So the combat spam isn't really lieing, it's just giving the first number in the calculation, or the number we'd see if there was no armor to pierce, ie a vulnerability to that damage type.
What would really help the devs track this stuff and help us verify is a modification to combat spam to list the raw damage it lists now, armor absorbtionand the final damage. Just as when we take a hit and see"a piket longhorn hits you for 596 damage. Your Ubese armor chest absorbs 507 damage." I know my Ubesearmor chest is 70% kinetic resistanceand 507 is more than 70% of 596 so I know the piket's damage is AP0 so the armor's AR1 rating first reduced the956 in half then applied the 70% resistance to the remaining half.
Now if the combat spam worked the same for shots fired you'd see. "You use advanced strafe for 3500 damage. An ATST's armor reduced the damage by 2450 points, dealing 1050 damage to it'saction.This tells me what my raw damage was, shows that the AP vs AR was the same and the 70% resistance decreased the damage properly and left the amount I dealt as well as to which pool it hit.
I'd much rather see this extra line per shot in the combat spam than the 6 lines of wound damage per wound hit they added recently. Then instead of having to take screenshots, ty to figure out which floaty is mine, my partner's or our pet's I'd have it right in the chat logs. then we coudl use the /log command to quickly document exactly what's happening with our shots. Have those to paste in and the serverside logs woudl be right there in black and white for the devs to quickly see exactly how the AP/AR/Resists are interacting.
Base Damage for the following tables is 200.
Old System Damage
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-325 23 20 18 15 13 10 8 5 3 0
-2 50 45 40 35 30 25 20 15 10 5 0
-1100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 10 0
0 200180 160 140 120 100 80 60 40 20 0
1 250225 200 175 150 125 100 75 50 25 0
2 313281 250 219 188 156 125 94 63 31 0
3 391352 313 273 234 195 156 117 78 39 0
New System Damage
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 200 161 122 83 44 5 0 0 0 0 0
-2 200 169 138 106 75 44 13 0 0 0 0
-1 200 175 150 125 100 75 50 25 0 0 0
0 200 180 160 140 120 100 80 60 40 20 0
1 200 190 180 170 160 150 140 130 120 110 100
2 200 195 190 185 180 175 170 165 160 155 150
3 200 198 195 193 190 188 185 183 180 178 175
Direct Difference New-Old
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 175 138 102 65 29 -8 -10 -8 -5 -3 0
-2 150 124 98 71 45 19 -8-15 -10 -5 0
-1 100 85 70 55 40 25 10 -5 -20 -10 0
0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1 -50 -35 -20 -5 10 25 40 55 70 85 100
2 -113 -86 -60 -34 -8 19 45 71 98 124 150
3 -191 -154 -118 -81 -44 -8 29 65 102 138 175
Percent Damage Increase over Old System
Resists
AP-AR 0% 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% 80% 90% 100%
-3 700% 615% 509% 373% 192% -62% -100% -100% -100% -100%
-2 300% 275% 244% 204% 150% 75% -37% -100% -100% -100%
-1 100% 94% 87% 79% 67% 50% 25% -17% -100% -100%
1 -20% -16% -10% -3% 7% 20% 40% 73%140% 340% Inf
2 -36% -31% -24% -15% -4% 12% 36% 76% 156% 396% Inf
3 -49% -44% -38% -30% -19% -4% 18% 56% 130% 354% Inf
Thank you very much.
Halleck
Ranger/Rifleman
Ahazi
Klaw, you've misquoted and this statement is getting copied across several forums. I don't know if Philosopher1976 would be bothered by it or not. However, it might be prudent to edit your initial post to quote the correct person. I was the person who made this statement, not Phil.
klawlegna wrote:
Philosopher1976:
I'd just like a confirmation of which "intended" is.... intended. The Official description posted for everyone, or the unofficial description posted for us? After that we can offer evidence of which is in effect.
Raphayl wrote:
Klaw, you've misquoted and this statement is getting copied across several forums. I don't know if Philosopher1976 would be bothered by it or not. However, it might be prudent to edit your initial post to quote the correct person. I was the person who made this statement, not Phil.
Raphayl is right ... thanks for clearing that up.
While I'm here, let me clear something else up, since there seem to be a lot of worried folks on this forum for no good reason. I ordinarily don't post in other profession's forums, but I can probably save you guys a lot of grief and worry.
The Devs ARE NOT nerfing armor piercing, reviewing armor piercing, or anything of the sort. There is NO CHANGE to armor piercing planned in the next patch or being proposed by the Devs. I have no idea whatsoever where this idea started, but if it's from the post at the beginning of this thread it's just a misreading of a poorly written post.
A bunch of Correspondents (e.g. Weaponsmith) and players (Riflemen) have tested armor piercing and presented some data to the Devs in the Correspondent forum. Keldarin's reply indicated that he believed that armor piercing was working as intended, that our combat spam that indicates otherwise is probably wrong, and that he wouldn't be willing to change or look at changing armor piercing without a whole ton of data because you need a large dataset.
That's it. You don't need to collect tons of data to avoid a nerf that's "on the way", and in fact getting data to the Devs is the only thing that might result in a nerf at some point in the future. As for the rumor that the Devs want armor piercing weapons to attack armor's CONDITION, I have no idea where that rumor started because it's not true. That's not what Keldarin said when he wrote "attack the armor" -- he meant that it would lower the armor's effectiveness.
I just want to clear this up, because I can tell from reading this thread that a lot of people are frustrated and concerned ... and there's really no reason to be, as far as I can tell.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
I just want to clear this up, because I can tell from reading this thread that a lot of people are frustrated and concerned ... and there's really no reason to be, as far as I can tell.
Keldarin seems to think that the Armor Piercing system works in a manner completely different from the way it actually works. The way he thinks it works would, if actually implemented, be a bad thing all around, and partiuclarly for AP2 and AP3 weapons.
- AP0 and AP1 weapons would recieve a HUGE increase when fighting a very small group of MOBs (high AR, low resistances), thus making AP2 and AP3 weapons less useful by comparison.
- Conversely, AP0 and AP1 weapons would receive an equally huge nerf vs. AR2 and AR3 MOBs with moderate-to-high resists.
- AP weapons on the whole would be less effective vs. AR0 or AR1 MOBs with low resists than they are currently, with AP3 weapons hit the worst. Note that the majority of the Critters in the game fall into this category.
I am not confident that the AP system will remain in its current state if we just hunker down and hope that Keldarin never notices that he's wrong. Sooner or later, he's gonna figure it out, and then he's going to say "Oh, hey, it's broken. We need to fix it so that it works like it's supposed to work." And since it will be a "fix" to a "broken" system that is not "working as intended," he won't need to review the changes with any of the correspondents.
The solution is to educate him now, and clue him in to how the AP system really works in the game, and then explain to him why the way he thinks it should work is actually a bad idea in comparison to the way it works currently.
Moreover, he and the other devs are making decisions on how weapons should work, and on what armor MOBs should have (e.g. the upcoming AT-ST nerf) based on an incorrect understanding of how Armor and Armor Piercing works in this game.
At the very least, they need to know how their own game works so they can make informed decisions.