Pistoleer Archive
Thread: READ THIS NOW!!! MY IDEA FOR COMBAT!!! post your thoughts
This is actually a re-post from a post that I just posted (that's alot of posts) on the TKA forum, and I'll be posting it in as many of the profession boards that matter as I feel the need to, (probably the BH one last, because they might not like it :-))
previous post:
I actually just read a post that mentioned something of what I am about to say, but not in quite as much... severity? or something, anyway, I thought I would post this first to the TKA's of our game, simply because I think and someone else might feel that TKA's were hurt the most by the KD/posture change nerf.
I have posted this before on the GCW forum, but no one seemed to care about that post or read it, anyway, I'll offer it up here in hopes that someone on this forum will respond.
I think there should be timer applied to ALL, yes ALL combat-related skills. This would include, but is not limited to :ALL special abilities that cause damage/status change/Pch/KD/ etc within ALL of the combat classes, poison/disease skills of the combat medic, stim-use, and things like warcry,berserk, etc etc, there might be more, but you get the idea...
The post that I read that was (sort of) concerning this issue, had a reply that said the Devs didn't want a group of players stringing KD's together to keep one enemy down.... well I ask, Why not??? I think that makes more sense than having something be KD-immune for 30 seconds, I mean that's just rediculous, in my opinion, if 5-7 TKA's teamed up and took on an enemy that could kill 2 of them in the process, they could keep it at bay with KD's but only if they used TEAMWORK, oh wow, there's and idea!!! instead of all of them just spamming whatever hits to do the most damage (as I think it would be now since KDnerf) they would have to communicate and plan out, then stagger their KD's and take whatever it is down.
So another scenario is.... what if 3-4 melee, with kd's or pch's take on 1, yes 1 player, say a BH, as it is now the BH could probably win with the out-of-range bug, but with my fix for KD/Pch, if one of the melees took down the BH, then they could possibly keep him down, by staggering their KD's... now this would be tough enough as it is, knowing when to use your KD, but it makes sense, 5 brawler-types beating the crap out of one marksman and he gets up and runs away? that would not, and should not happen, I mean did you ever see a police beat down with 5 of them beating away on one guy, and he gets up in the middle of them, runs, and they can't catch him and hit him..... or for that matter, knock him down again...
This timer, whether its 30 seconds, 25, or if its different for every skill based on how powerful that skill is, would stop people from spamming the strongest attacks over, and over, and over again and could possibly make PvP just a tad bit more even, who knows, I just think that people that can do 1-shot kills, such as HWcone2 or HWsingle2 should be able to use them just however long their attack works, it should be "1-shot kill, ok now I need to run around a little, and keep myself alive.... hgmmmmm... getting shot, oh now I can do it again BAM!"
ok, some of that was a little abstract and weirdly worded, but I don't really want to change any of it so... PLEASE POST, flame me, respond with thoughts, tell me I'm right, tell me I'm wrong, just RESPOND..
I'd really like feedback :-)
I would!
ok just to clarify, I meant shouldn't instead of should, when I talk about HWspecials, I meant should not be able to use them just their attack speed
please post your thoughts!
Ok man here's some feedback.
From what I gather, you want to give each unique effect, such as Posture change, KD, dizzy (for example) a timer. Correct me if Im wrong.
However, you use the example of 5 guys beating up on one guy. How does each guy know whether or not the beat-ee is already immune to the next move in his combat queue? It would be frustrating to string out some good combo moves only to find out the target is immune to half of them because somebody else did it first. I think players would find that frustrating.
HighRoller3K wrote:
Ok man here's some feedback.
From what I gather, you want to give each unique effect, such as Posture change, KD, dizzy (for example) a timer. Correct me if Im wrong.
However, you use the example of 5 guys beating up on one guy. How does each guy know whether or not the beat-ee is already immune to the next move in his combat queue? It would be frustrating to string out some good combo moves only to find out the target is immune to half of them because somebody else did it first. I think players would find that frustrating.
Ok, first of all, thanks for the reply, but my idea is to place the timer on actual abilites being used, by the person that used them, so, each individual person would have timers on their *own* abilities they're using, so you could still use your own skills at whatever time you wanted to, barring your own timers etc... does that clarify it???
Also, the thought was to place the timer not only on "unique-effect" abilites, but simply put, the really powerful ones, and the timer can be adjusted due to the varying strengths of specials,
reply again if it still doesnt add up :-) I'm willing to discuss
Also, here is a link to the post that no one replied to or even read for all i know... basically states the same idea as what I said, it might be better worded, I dunno, but here it is,
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=GCW&message.id=34893
Ok, I get it now 
I still see a problem though...the reason the dev's put the timer onKD and Suppressmoves was because getting constantly knocked over with no chance of escape or defense was no fun at all. I think that your idea COULD work, but would require careful timer balancing to avoid situations wehre people cannot fight back or escape. When that happens people get mad, and get a negative feeling towards combat in the game.
It may well cause issues with lots of timers being generated for differnt moves, multiply that by 1000 and thats a lot of extra work across the servers.
Other than that, its not too bad.
1) You refered to 5 people beating on one person. When the person is knocked down, I am sure the other attacker will not allow the person on the ground to get up. So if this is the case then that would mean that the 30 sec role brakes the concept of how things work. The 30 sec patch is as explained above. To give melee and lower level players a chance to fight back and feel a worth of I did something.
I know how it feels to be incapped in two attack. I was KD and then killed with a LLC, and I can understand why people would feel they were cheated.
2) The 30 sec policy on all ability would force people to become power hunters, where they have to find the strongest and fastest weapon around. This means if I use a tactic using special moves, I would not have the ability too. Unless I am wrong, I will provide an example of what I am talking about.
EXAMPLE:
I am hunting an NPC creature, it rushes into melee combat and I use weapon support to do a warning shot and then combo it with surpression fire to keep it at bay.
So are you saying that I would use warning shot and then have to wait 30 secs before I can use surpression fire.
If the answer is NO, then you have to keep in mind that spam actions apply to attacks only now and the special moves with cause unfair advantage have been patched. Granted I don't like the patch that is put in place, but I understand it.
If the answer is YES, then you have to keep in mind that this game is not turned base and warning shot or surpression fire or KD or Disarm Shot only lasts for a few seconds and you are ready to make your move to attack back.
If I am wrong or have gotten the wrong impression please update me, so I can understand what you are talking about.
sldragon
Talus
Shadowfire
If that what you are referring too. If so then you don't have to worry about that... That is already put in place and has been since the begin of the game. It is the weapon speed, my DX2 has a weapon speed of 1.5 and my scout blaster has a weapon speed of .5. I am not sure if you understand that the weapon speed is the determination of how many second have to go by before you can use the weapon again, reguardless of what action you take.
So, if I am attacking a NPC creature with my DX2, I have to wait 1.5 second between each action. Now this has already shown to be a problem of power seekers. If a person has .5 seconds to wait before attacking again and the person he or she is attacking has to wait like 2.5 or even 3 seconds before they can attack again. Then the person who can attack in .5 second has the advantage. This has generated people always looking for the strongest weapon they can find (low speed cost and high damage).
The weaponsmith in the game sell there weapons faster if they can make them with a speed close to 0 or damage with does beyond the normal damage. This is how the DEV are balancing the game out. You can be a person who has less skills then another person or creature and the speed and damage you inflict, determines if you have the ability to win or lose.
A prime example would be, if a rifleman or BH uses eyeshot when fighting. They have turned the tables in there favor, even if they are up against a master commando.
The tactics you use in battle play a larger part in battle if you win or lose. Now that is said, the timer idea on all skills is a good idea, but it is already put in place for each weapon. If you would like to see the different and get a better idea of what I am talking about. You can pick up the standard CDEF weapon and an elite type of weapon. Check the stats on both and attack a target which can take more then one hit from each weapon. When you make your first attack, begin counting and you will see a big differents in it.
If I am wrong or i am not understanding again..please explain
sldragon
Talus
Shadowfire
Ok, dragon, you make some worthy points, and your post is well thought out, although I think you're missing a small part of what I'msuggesting,
I realize that weapon speeds and personal speed mods, and then the special move speed modifier come into effect when calculating how often someone can use a special ability. but can I ask you, how fast do can master pistoleer or bounty hunter, etc, someone with huge speed mods for something, how fast can they fire off something that is extremely devastating? to my knowledge, and I may be wrong, someone can fire off one eyeshot per every 2-2.5 seconds, (approx. and with high speed skill) the same can be said of many other powerful abilities, including a KD, which they nerfed because people could spam them, and keep an opponent down basically for good,... now what if that BH (just as an example) could only fire an eyeshot every 15 seconds, or 10 seconds.... then that would force him to use different skills, and more often. in other words, he'd have to fire the mindshot, then maybe a bleed, now use the knockdown special (BH carbine?), and now that their hurt, bleeding, and on the ground, pulls out the LLC and fires a shot, maybe two, and is basically now ready to use the other specials again....
and so, weaponsmiths would still have to make faster, stronger weapons for people, its just that players would have to vary their attacks, and their tactics.... and I lost my train of thought there.... hmmm
also, to my knowledge, a master (high speed mod) can use elite, and "newb" weapons at nearly the same speeds. since doesn't weapon speed cap at 1.0 based on your skill? such that with enough speed skill, you can fire a 1.5 weapon and a 2.2 weapon only at the cap of 1.0 with enough skill????
my 2 creds :-) thanks for the post
sldragon wrote:
You have an interesting concept here. I only have two problems with it.. YES only 2
1) You refered to 5 people beating on one person. When the person is knocked down, I am sure the other attacker will not allow the person on the ground to get up. So if this is the case then that would mean that the 30 sec role brakes the concept of how things work. The 30 sec patch is as explained above. To give melee and lower level players a chance to fight back and feel a worth of I did something.
I know how it feels to be incapped in two attack. I was KD and then killed with a LLC, and I can understand why people would feel they were cheated.
2) The 30 sec policy on all ability would force people to become power hunters, where they have to find the strongest and fastest weapon around. This means if I use a tactic using special moves, I would not have the ability too. Unless I am wrong, I will provide an example of what I am talking about.
EXAMPLE:
I am hunting an NPC creature, it rushes into melee combat and I use weapon support to do a warning shot and then combo it with surpression fire to keep it at bay.
So are you saying that I would use warning shot and then have to wait 30 secs before I can use surpression fire.
If the answer is NO, then you have to keep in mind that spam actions apply to attacks only now and the special moves with cause unfair advantage have been patched. Granted I don't like the patch that is put in place, but I understand it.
If the answer is YES, then you have to keep in mind that this game is not turned base and warning shot or surpression fire or KD or Disarm Shot only lasts for a few seconds and you are ready to make your move to attack back.
If I am wrong or have gotten the wrong impression please update me, so I can understand what you are talking about.
sldragon
Talus
Shadowfire
ok, first of all I like your feedback, being well-thought out as it is, but you're getting a little bit of the wrong impression from me, and the answer is NO,..... sort of...
with putting a timer on all, or maybe almost all combat specials, there could never be a *universal* timer on them... there would be 30 second timers (maybe that long) on some skills, and 10-20 second timers on others, and here's where the balancing and checking comes in, which I might add would take even more time and patience out of the community as a whole, the most powerful and effective skills would have longer timers, and each timer would only apply to the use of that one skill,
for example, a tKA master could use both kd1 and kd2 in a row, if they saw fit, but then possibly have to wait 20 seconds or whatever the timer was to use them again.....
so then maybe the goal of some people would be to get as many different pch/kd skills as they can, and string them together in one long sentence of kd's... that is definately a possibility, but if certain skills don't knock people down as easily, or they miss some of them, plus, alot of the lower-end kd's don't really do very much damage, and some (lunge skill Pch) don't do any damage really,
well, that's all I can think of, as always there are tons of way to change something like this, tweak tweak, balance balance, NERF!!! lol, keep up the feedback :-)
It means something is IMMUNE to kd for 30 seconds...when it is you ONLY chance to survive and you can't get it to work, what do you think I am thining of the whole combat thing in SWG ?
I really prefer someone being KDed by 7 guys whine than a lone guy being unable to KD someone just because something did it 2 seconds ago.
So would be fair to a player who has worked hard to become master in some profession, to be forced to the same level as a novice of that profession. I would expect that a master pistoleer and a novice pistoleer to have different skills and different speeds. I would expect that a master pistoleer would be twice as fast in this action when using the pistoleer skills, becuase he or she has used them over and over and over. Where the novice pistoleer has not uses or even have the skills to match a master pistoleer.
I believe your overall goal is to balance the battle field so that low skilled player are not taken advantage of and you are trying to force player to come up with better tactics then just using one skill to take out a player or NPC.
If I am wrong, please correct me.
The idea of different skills and different levels is apart of everyday life and it should also apply in-game as well. I would not expect to pick up novice marksman and walk up to a master marksmen and win a duel. I might put a challenge and I might win if my tactics are better then the other persons. The choice of which tactics to apply and how to execute them is based on each person, so why would you force someone who take the time to earn the skills and speed increase to be restricted on how to develop what tactics they use in combat.
I believe a timer is a good idea, but if you are planning on makeing a timer for each skill then it should be based on the players skill level, the effect of damage, the affect of the skills and so forth. Like I mentioned in the pervious post, all these factors are already applied into the skills. That is why, if I use a body shot 3 with a DX2, it will take me longer before I can use health shot 2 with the DX2, but my scout blaster has a lower speed and I can use the same combo but have the ability, but faster.
I think your idea of the timer is mis-placed, I think your goal is to increase the speed of the weapons so it take longer to attack the other person, this give the other person time to react and better there postion.
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PS - If check the history of the patches, you will see that ever attempt that SOE tried to increase the speed or even out the combat reguardless of what skill level you are at. Has not gone over well in the community, there have been a ton of post in the archive about this. I am sure if you look back into the archive you will see what the mass of people are looking for, which is REALISM.
example about supression fire:
REALISM would be you can use this skill over and over and over for ever attack, but you not be hitting your target, so your target would take no damage. I use this in REAL LIFE when I play paintball, I use supression fire to better my position. The in-game supression fire before the 30 sec timer, you can use it over and over and over, but it did damage to the creature or player so you didn't need to do anything else, but supressions fire to win. After the 30 sec timer, a creature can be effected by the supression fire and take the damage the first time, after that the effect of supression fire from all over attacker to that one target are no non-effective, but the damage will be dealt.
If you want to change things and force people into using different tactics, then you should conside a 0 HAM effect on some of the special moves. Dizzy, KD, Changing stands, and I am sure there are a few others.
sldragon
Talus
Shadowfire
sldragon wrote:
The special moves a person can uses has an affect to it, and in almost all the cases. The affect does not stack with the same affect. So if a BH uses eyeshot, it would be consided worthless to use eyeshot again. The affect is not going to stack and last longer. If a player has not realized this, then they will spam a special move, even if it is not doing any good. The other point about master and speed, you have to realize that you gain skills over time, so if someone is at a higher level then another person. One person has more skill in an area then the other. These skills are earned for the most part by doing, if you want to get scouting XP. You need to haverest Bone, Hide, or Meat from a creature.
I believe your overall goal is to balance the battle field so that low skilled player are not taken advantage of and you are trying to force player to come up with better tactics then just using one skill to take out a player or NPC.
The idea of different skills and different levels is apart of everyday life and it should also apply in-game as well. I would not expect to pick up novice marksman and walk up to a master marksmen and win a duel. I might put a challenge and I might win if my tactics are better then the other persons. The choice of which tactics to apply and how to execute them is based on each person, so why would you force someone who take the time to earn the skills and speed increase to be restricted on how to develop what tactics they use in combat.
Ok, my goal with the "idea" I had was to try and balance pvp at the master professions, if it were to have to side-effect, which I'm not sure it would, of giving novices in elites a better chance, then so be it... they would still lose to a master
Also, you talk about eyeshot as though you think I'm refferring to bleedshot... the BH mind bleed. eyeshot is simply a shot to damage the mind of an opponent, as well as causing blindness, the blindness doesn't stack, but people do spam it over and over because it does direct damage, not bleeding damage, ... in effect, yes spamming *bleedingshot* over and over would have no effect, but eyeshot it would be, and is effective to spam it.
Also, I hadn't originally planned with this to place timers on skills like bodyshot2 and lower... maybe one on bodyshot3(legshot3/headshot3/etc) but because these don't have any extra effects or do as much damage as others there would be no, or a very short timer.
sldragon wrote:
So would be fair to a player who has worked hard to become master in some profession, to be forced to the same level as a novice of that profession. I would expect that a master pistoleer and a novice pistoleer to have different skills and different speeds. I would expect that a master pistoleer would be twice as fast in this action when using the pistoleer skills, becuase he or she has used them over and over and over. Where the novice pistoleer has not uses or even have the skills to match a master pistoleer.
Ok, a master would still be stronger, simply because they would have more skills to use, and yes they would be able to use them faster, just not the same one over and over.... Saying that a master pistoleer would be on the same level as a novice with my proposed idea is propostrous (sp?) and silly.... why would a novice pistoleer(only) defeat a master pistoleer, when the master has skills like fanshot, stopping shot, double tap, bodyshot3, and disarming shots (if it worked?), just that the master can't use one of them over and over,.. oh, and he could use those 4-5 skills in a row, and at a faster rate I might add for the simple reason that he has a higher speed skill, which doesn't change, while the novice could only use lowerlevel/lowerdamage specials, and at lower speeds, because the speed skill mod still plays a large role
for instance, (in a master vs novice fight)(both having ranged support IV), if (and I don't want this necessarily) there were a 30 second timer applied to ALL combat skills, a novice pistoleer vs a master pistoleer would look like this:
novice uses : healthshot2, bodyshot2, suppression fire, rollshot, kip-upshot, diveshot, pointblanksingle1, overcharge1? did I miss anyhting? and they use these not necessarily in that order, but at a specific rate...
master uses : healthshot2, bodyshot2, suppression fire, rollshot, kip-upshot, diveshot, pointblanksingle1, overcharge1 (if he wanted to) this is were he could win, because a master would roll these shots out at a faster rate, just not be able to use them again for a little while... oh, but before that he could use : bodyshot3, stoppingshot, fanshot, disarmingshot1+2 (if worked), pointblanksingle2, need I say more? plus, these specials are much higher damage than the novice ones.... and happen at higher speeds,
Now I feel as though I have repeated myself, oh well... I do think it would be a good thing to lower these timers as you get higher speed skill, such as use something every 35 seconds at novice pistoleer, and 25 seconds at master, but I don't think that would be as easy to implement as straight timers on individual skills
any more questions, comments or concerns just post it...
PS: I like your REALISM example of what suppression fire is, and is definately not a damaging thing (like it is in the game), the problem with realism in a video game is that... its a video game, the best you can hope for is a little bit of balance, increased strength at higher character levels, and fun... realism happens sometimes, but its not always what's best for the game