Pistoleer Archive

From your FAQ Post in regards to speed

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Q. How does Pistol Speed work? Is there a cap to pistol speed?
A. (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
And if result < 1.0s , result = 1.0s

So, any speed over +100 does nothing (is overkill) since the minimum attack speed is 1.0 seconds. Yes, that includes with specials.

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If this is true than pistol speed does not matter either. Can you tell us where this equation came from? I hope it is not from SOE or we are all in trouble. Here is an example for anyone that does not understand what I am saying.

Example

Suppose I am a pistoleer/carboneer/rifleman with a gun that is so bad that it has a 9s speed on it. I have the +100 pistol speed. In the equation it wold look like this.

[9s (PistolSpeed) * 2.5(SpecialDelayMod)] - [9s (PistolSpeed) * 2.5(SpecialDelayMod) * 1.0 (+100 pistol speed skill/100)] = 0

Since 0<1s you would shoot a 9 second gun at 1s rate.

This means that any class with a +100 speed skill can fire ANY weapon at 1s using ANY Special attack.

It came from testing I did. I have never tested it using a weapon other thana pistol, if that's what your question is. It has also been tested by others, and confirmed in various posts. We have also seen no data to show it's not correct. Folks with +100 speed do indeed fire ANY pistol (4.0 speed), with ANY special (say, stopping shot, the slowest special), at 1.0 seconds (minimum attack speed).

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PISTOL SPEED

I had this last night, got too tired to post.

This was test data from round 1 compared to round 2 (when I used a faster weapon)

(rounded to tenths)

ROUND1 (Already posted this in that chart)

Pistol Speed = +74
CDEF Speed = 4.0
Normal Attack = 1.0 seconds per shot
Double Tap = 2.2 seconds per shot
Stopping Shot = 4.2 seconds per shot

ROUND2 (I took these last night)

CDEF Speed = 3.1 (Speed power up, same pistol)
Normal Attack = 1.0 seconds per shot
Double Tap = 1.7 seconds per shot
Stopping Shot = 3.2 seconds per shot

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So, from that, we have:

Minimum attack speed = 1.0 second (we knew this from other folks posts)

Attack speed formula:

(WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
And if result < 1.0s , result = 1.0s

So using my data:
Stopping Shot:
(4.0 (CDEF speed) * 4.0 (stopping shot delay, see top of chart) ) - (4.0 * 4.0) * (0.74)
16-11.84 = 4.16, rounded to tenths = 4.2 seconds for stopping shot. Which matches my test data.

Double Tap:
(4.0 * 2.1) - (4.0 * 2.1) * (0.74)
8.4-6.22 = 2.18 rounded to tenths = 2.2 seconds for double tap. Which matches my test data.

So predicted speed for stopping shot using a 3.1 CDEF is:
(3.1 * 4.0) - (3.1 * 4.0) * 0.74
12.4 - 9.18 = 3.22s, rounded to nearest tenth = 3.2 seconds (Matches test above)

So predicted speed for double tap using a 3.1 CDEF is:
(3.1 * 2.1) - (3.1 * 2.1) * 0.74
6.51 - 4.81 = 1.69s, rounded to nearest tenth = 1.7 seconds (Matches test above)

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And this is exactly why the bounty hunter/pistoleer dabbler is so incredibly overpowered.

MonikaTSarn ,

Well, I think that has to be taken in context.

BH Carbine + Carbineer: Same issue

Carbineer + skill tapes: Same issue (working?)

Pistoleer + skill tapes: same issue (working?)

Rifleman+ skill tapes: same issue. (working?)

In fact, rifleman already have a higher speed than pistoleers just from mastering, and thus, already not only benefit more from a9 speed rifle dropping more seconds off the speed than we do off an already fast pistol, but it also takes less skill mods to decrease it.

If skill tapes are fixed, and speed is corrected so that it's not using the same calculation, then BH/pistoleer, except for eyeshot, will probably be more balanced, at least in terms ofhow many points it costs to do that vs reward. Fact is, if you WANT to spend ALL of your points on combat, SWG allows you to. It also allows folks that want to master one craft, and one combat profession, to do so, and be effective. But to suggest we should be happy with some change that turns even the most dedicated combat player to ONLY be as good as a master architect/Master rifleman, is not a good idea IMO. Either that, or we will (the dedicated combat fiends) all migrate to BH and Commando. Which is maybe what you're suggesting.

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MonikaTSarn wrote:
And this is exactly why the bounty hunter/pistoleer dabbler is so incredibly overpowered.

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I'm a Bounty Pistol 4/Pistoleer and I'm not sure why you consider it overpowered.

We have extra speed and accuracy mods, but what would you expect with such an elite profession?

Thats the whole idea behind it, to become just that little bit more elite with a pistol than the Master pistoleers by mastering the bounty line and the pistoleer profession.

It has its disadvantages though.

For example, I cant heal as I have no SP left to go for medic.

Thats the sacrifice we make.

We cant 'One Shot' anything, we just shoot faster with some different (And perhaps better) moves.

Just because Pistoleer is 'broken' atm doesnt mean that theres anything overpowering with the Bounty/Pistoleer combo.

Acof

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Jaegen88 wrote:

So, from that, we have:

Minimum attack speed = 1.0 second (we knew this from other folks posts)

Attack speed formula:

(WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
And if result < 1.0s , result = 1.0s

So using my data:
Stopping Shot:
(4.0 (CDEF speed) * 4.0 (stopping shot delay, see top of chart) ) - (4.0 * 4.0) * (0.74)
16-11.84 = 4.16, rounded to tenths = 4.2 seconds for stopping shot. Which matches my test data.

Double Tap:
(4.0 * 2.1) - (4.0 * 2.1) * (0.74)
8.4-6.22 = 2.18 rounded to tenths = 2.2 seconds for double tap. Which matches my test data.

So predicted speed for stopping shot using a 3.1 CDEF is:
(3.1 * 4.0) - (3.1 * 4.0) * 0.74
12.4 - 9.18 = 3.22s, rounded to nearest tenth = 3.2 seconds (Matches test above)

So predicted speed for double tap using a 3.1 CDEF is:
(3.1 * 2.1) - (3.1 * 2.1) * 0.74
6.51 - 4.81 = 1.69s, rounded to nearest tenth = 1.7 seconds (Matches test above)

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I see where the original poster was getting messed up as I was as well.

Your formula should read:

(WpnSpd * SpecialDelayMod) - ((WpnSpd * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpd/100))

The way you had it writen was you would have like (4*4) - (4*4) * .74 would would give you a value of 0 because 16 - 16 equals 0

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Sullust187 wrote:

Your formula should read:

(WpnSpd * SpecialDelayMod) - ((WpnSpd * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpd/100))

The way you had it writen was you would have like (4*4) - (4*4) * .74 would would give you a value of 0 because 16 - 16 equals 0

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Actually it doesnt. Think about your basicmath from school. Order of operations. multiplication and division always come before subtraction. ::chuckle:: I just remembered an old mnemonic device.

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally.

Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication and Division, Addition and Subtraction.

Things are unbalanced because anything that was balanced based on speed, is broken by very high speed skills. Sony just didn't think this through clearly!

Higher damage special attacks that are balanced by higher delays? - BROKEN

- Take Stopping Shot and Fan shot for example. DPS increase on SS = 5x damage / 4x delay = 1.25x. For Fan Shot: 4x damage / 2.5x delay = 1.6x. Does anyone think that Sony intended for Stopping Shot to become the better shot at high speed skills and ultimately end up doing 5x DPS?

Higher damage but slower weapons balanced against lower damage but faster weapons? - BROKEN

- Do you think Sony designed this with the intention that (looking at regular shots here) while pistoleers would be able to half their weapons speed / double their damage, that riflemen would be able to increase their damage by 600, 700, even 800 or more percent?

I think this is one of the reasons why skill enhancement attachments do not currently work... they had to disable them to limit the number of situations where things like this could happen (anyone want to see a Commando, now that they're fixed, with those new several thousand damage weapons and clothes stuffed with heavy weapon speed skill attachments firing once a second?).

This explains a lot.

It explains why master pistoleers who don't take bh skills all prefer fanshot over stopping shot, and why bh who take stances and grips pistoleer line think stopping shot needs nerfing.

1200+ damage each second does seem a tad excessive.

Yeti, as usual, is correct. There is no way given the current speed calculation that the balance issues it causes are taken into account.

I'm not sure why it's necessarily broken. I don't see anything wrong with the value of special moves changing based on your skill.

There's no real difference between double tap/stopping shot/fanshot other than the damage/delay, since none of them have any special effects besides damage. Why is it unreasonable that the usefulness of a skill would depend on the speed of the gun and/or the skill of the player? If speed never capped, fanshot would be the best, period. And stopping shot would have pretty much zero use, since double tap gives better DPS.

I do agree the ability to get to +100 speed is somewhat ridiculous, since it does remove all consideration about speed or whatever. Capping it somewhere below that seems quite reasonable. But even with a fairly high maximum speed mod, you still can balance special moves appropriately by adding long delays to marginally better specials. Since pistols generally have lower delays but lower damage (and thus usually cap earlier) it might be reasonable to have a master pistoleer special with a -very- long delay, but with a correspondingly high damage multiplier (although the uncapped DPS increase would be lower than SS or fanshot, say).

As a note, last I heard speed mod tapes (and possibly tapes in general) did not work. There was some work down on the Swordsman forum testing this, I believe.

Yes, of course - other ways to reach 100 speed are just as unbalanced. Carabineer/Bounty hunter is probably the worst. Master rifleman arequitepowerfull because they get close to 100.

I think speed, and probably all defense skills, have to be capped, at 80 maybe.

I think 80 would too high.

- Adjust all weapons so that none can be crafted below 2.0 speed. (So only slicing and powerups get you lower to start with).

- Soft cap the effect of all speed skills at 50.

- After soft cap make the points give 1/5th the effect.

- Hard cap the effect at 75%.

So skill value vs percent speed decrease:

0 = 0%
10 = 10%
25 = 25%
50 = 50%
60 = 52%
75 = 55%
100 = 60%
129 = 65.8% (I believe 129 is the speed skill of a Master Pistoleer + BH Pistol IV?)
175+ = 75% (don't forget that folks can stack on skill enhancement attachments or bio-engineer attachment modified clothing if they ever make those things work).