Pistoleer Archive

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If someone can point out some concrete reasons, I'd really, really like to discuss them.

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Thespeed mods It may not be all that visible but I still think its a huge problem, and will keep getting worse and worse with time if it's not fixed. Just bringing it up again cause I havent really seen it being discussed in any threads

They just make stuff up, thats all I can think of. Maybe a carbineer shot at a pistoleer, and the pistoleer dodged once. I cant imagine it happened any more than that. I seriously get killed all the time by lots of different proffesions. Oh well, we better whine or they'll listen to them, and then....? Im not wasting anymore skill points whatsoever on pistoleer, I'll keep what I have for now.

Speed mods huh? Ok lets talk about them. You got any #s Sarn? I don't but let me get some and I will get back to you on the math if you haven't already done it. (I went strait up the pistol/marksman to pistoleer so have no idea what rifles and carbines do.)

As to the origanal post: I've been wondering latley if it's worth my time to climb this tree. The best thing it has going for it, in my eyes, is I don't like the Rifleman and Carbiner trees either.Was thinking of going the Commando route. (But that's for another forum )

I just read it. Good post Jaggen, very good, I doubt he'll listen though. For anything like that, we should all just rate their worthless nerf posts a 1 and our defense posts a 5.

Well here's another long post about speed mods then.. Something to try to start the discussion I guess The data on how the mods work has been posted on various threads alot of times so that's not really needed, but just to clear it up, it's basically +1 speed mod = 1% off your delay between shots. But what hasnt really been discussed is why the way it works is really bad for the game in alot of ways.

First point being the balance between rifles, carbines and pistols. Pistols and carbines can get to +100 mod both, (with BH) which is -100% off their delay meaning everything you lay your hands on will fire at 1 seconds per shot. Rifles get to +95 with master marksman which is the same thing for almost everything currently, but if we're thinking of the future of the game, there'll be skill mod items, probably new skills, stuff like that. So eventually they'll all be at the same point, firing at 1 sec per shot. Now, the weapons are supposed to be balanced by pistols being light damage and fast speed, rifles heavy damage and slow speed, carbines in between. When you totally remove the speed factor from it since it'll be the same for them all, you're only left with a difference in damage. (and accuracy and ham costs, those play a part in it too but I dont think they're enough to balance that out alone)

Rifles have their high ham costs for their mindpool to make them unable to shoot for insane amounts for any longer period, carbines on the other hand can go on a bit longer cause they dont use mind that much and can be healed. The laser carbines coming out now I've seen have been up to 500+ damage with AP2, it's pretty nasty with a 1 sec delay.

The other balance thing besides between the classes is within the same class, specially riflemen. If they gain such a huge speed increase at master that increases their power so much, it'll have to be balanced at master so they wouldnt be overpowered compared to other classes.. But this leaves the novices in a pretty bad situation since they're so much less powerful than the masters of their class, in comparison to the difference between for example a novice pistoleer/master pistoleer. It's a pretty hard one to solve since the difference is so huge, if you buff the riflemen so the novices wouldnt be weak, the masters would be overpowered.. and if the masters are balanced, the novices are very weak.

Then, some other reasons. When thinking about the future of the game again, adding new weapons, skills, items and all that, speed related things wont really be of any use. There's absolutely no flexibility in that for the future, since the wayits capped, the cap cant be changed to allowfaster speedswithout changing the system itself.

I doubt this was ever intended, so it makes the whole speed mod system seem either very short sighted or a mistake in the code. I guess it could work with speed not being an issue in any of the future things, but that would be pretty boring wouldn't it? It'd kill alot of variety in different weapons, which clearly is supposed to be there since they make weapons with different speeds now. I find it pretty lame that at the moment when getting a new gun all I look at in the stats are the damage (type and AP included) and ham costs. (I'm a carbineer/BH carbineer)

I'm sure there are a few other reasons for it too, I keep thinking of new ones all the time, one minor one being the status changes, stuns and such. Ones that are supposed to decrease your fire rate.. I dont think they work when you have a 100% delay reduction. I'm not actually certain of this one though, cause the reduction could be applied afterwards, in which case it would still work. I've not tested it, but I cant remember ever shooting slower cause of any of those, so..

As for how to fix it, best option in my opinion would be to just make the speed mod act as a percentage increase to the speed instead of a decrease to the delay. The actual mod would never cap that way like it does at 100% with delay decrease, so higher speed mods would always remain useful. The only thing capped in that case would be the actual value of how fast your weapon fires, which is 1 second now, and that should at least be easier to change if needed.

Changing the system wouldrequire some balancing work along with it since the way the weapons work would change, but the later it's fixed the more work it'll require.. And changing it early should make future balancing and additions much less painful. (and actually possible!)

Yep. We've said it before, start with fixing knockdown and speed, and examine high end crafting for everyone's weapons, and THEN come tell us what is overpowered. And please dont compare a master pistoleer to some expert with a gimpy gun, or worse, a combination profession to the same.

Let us talk of all things overpowered:

Dizzy + KD or Suppression fire = lay down for a while.

We get no dizzy, will have no range KD and WE are supposed to be overpowered?

What I see as overpowered is the basis of our class: The Pistol. It has the lowest base speeds, has decent damage and has fantastically low mind drain. H and A drain are negligible because they can be healed. Its the low mind drain that makes our weapon superior. I've tried using rifles and carbines and you cannot simply spam one attack like leg shot or head shot. You would kill yourself with the mind drain. We can pick up a scout blaster though (and any marksman can do the same) and simply spam bodyshot all day long, never reducing our mind.

Another big issue is that Holo came out and said that we were overpowered. No amount of discussion will change that until he comes out and says "I'm sorry, we meant that carbineers with dizzy and suppression/kd are way overpowered."

So its a combination of jealousy, PVP masters schooling novices and Dev perception that have us in the doghouse with all the other combat professions.

The good thing is that being a Pistol Master I am accruing a large pool of combat xp. Soon I will have 300,000 combat xp sitting around. When they finally nerf Pistoleer into ineffectiveness I can change over to carbineer quickly to get some great dizzy combos going. Or maybe I'll just go commando. The 300,000 would climb their combat line right away. They are going to be better than pistoleer soon enough.

Come on, Jaegen, youknow that nerf-cryers are 90% newbs, and 90% retards that have NO IDEA what they are talking about.

Only time I've seen a good nerf was change to pistolwhip getting a cooldown. Not really fair to knock someone down and spam it without any chance for the opponent to get up at all. I still think they should have fixed it by throwing in a recovery move, where theperson being whippedhas a chance to counterattack by kicking the pistolwhip spammer away from him and then rolling up or something though.

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I really don't know what to think about Carbineers complaining about pistoleers. I thought we were past all that? Are we?

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=carabineer&message.id=4284

So our defensive modifiers make us in need of balance? Is that not the most ridiculous thing you've ever heard of?

Oh wait, our mind shot needs to be nerfed too *doh*

We can spend a lot of skill points to get smuggler + unarmed all for a single target ranged knockdown that comes in AOE form for Carbineers...nerf smuggler + pistoleer?? What is that?

LOL, but the best..was the bit about the superiority of the DX2. Now, I like the DX2 personally, but wow. I never thought something on our issues list would be something someone wanted. Oh wait, they want our broken defenses too! I suggest we trade dodge and resistance vs state effecst, for disarming shot 2 to have AOE KD again..not sure if that will be well received. Anyway, just thought I'd let you know what the flip side is saying.

Can anyone think of any gross imbalance in rifleman/pistoleer/carbineer right now? Rifles using mind for specials and eyshot not using mind, is about the biggest constraint I see, and that's a bounty hunter issue, not a pistoleer issue. I think this is all still remnants of knockdown being way overpowered, and the resulting flood of high level pistoleers. If someone can point out some concrete reasons, I'd really, really like to discuss them.

Jaegen ... your reply was totally on target. I mean, come on, only a moron would say that we're OVERpowered compared to Carbineers. If their beef is that some of us are getting BH Pistol too, well viola they can get BH Carbine and be even MORE powerful than us ... my Master Carbineer/BH Carbine friend can fire his massive AR2 carbine as fast as I can fire a Scout Pistol. And somehow WE are the ones who need to be nerfed? LOL

We don't have a single special that works, none of our defenses work, and our speed is worse than the BH Pistol line. We aren't even the best profession with a pistol at this point ... I think we're probably third, given some of the nice specials in the Smuggler: Dirty Fighting line.

Like you said, the reason people hate pistoleers is because 1) we could level faster prior to pistolwhip nerf, so there were a lot more high level pistoleers running around and 2) great Scouts were easy for masters to make and cheap to buy. So Novice Riflemen and Carbineers were comparing themselves to Master Pistoleers (who were all using Disarm2) or worse yet, to BH Pistol + Pistoleer guys.

Keep putting the truth out there ... we need to counteract this disinformation. My hope is that eventually the large mass of pistoleers out there will level up and realize how crappy their profession is ... at that point they'll whine and the Devs will fix us. Hey, I can dream, can't I?

Three words: Scruffy looking nerfherders.

Lol they think were overpowered? Funny thing, I've been thinking of ditching pistol to go carbine.Why? Because their specials rock ours atm ( state attacks ), their weapons rock ours atm ( my buddy who is only in 3rd block of carbine in MARKSMAN atm has a speed sliced laser carbine it shoots as fast as my damage sliced DX2 has over 100 more damage and a higher AR rating lol, maybe if they ever get around to fixing the way speed works it might even out).

Add the fact that our defensive modifyers are useless atm and i see very little reason to continue with pistol.The carbineerswould like everyone to believe their HAM cost is excessive and the equivalent of putting their gun to their own head and pulling the trigger killing themselves with every shot.Yet every time i group with a carbineerthey use specials just as much as any pistoleer, only difference is at the end of the night they may have used a couple extra stim packs.

Im sick of other profesions calling for nerfs on other professions.Personally i want to see all proffesions get fixed not nerfed.Whatsux most about this whole situation is that a careless remark by a dev stating pistoleersMAY be overpowered may of caused this ( their wasof course no proof to this, it was just a conclusion theycame to because of lack of whining in our correspondentreport

I took pistoleer for a few reasons, i started with a pistol so it was naturally what i adavnced in 1st.As a new player the cheaper cost of pistols was attractive especially with the insane slicing system they have in place where if you want a great weapon you need to buy at least 6 to get the slice you want.We are supposed to have defensive modifyers.And i believed that although my weapon may not be as powerful as other lines that when DPS was taken into account we would at least be somewhat comparable, we would still do the least amount of damage but it wouldn't be a huge differenceafter DPS was factored in and the lower HAm costs would compensate for that.But speed modifyers dont work properly anyways.