Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Bounty vs Pistoleer and skills applied.
Bounty Hunters and Pistoleers have been whining about who should be better at what.
I would like to elaborate on few facts and point out some issues and thoughts for the Developers to consider when balancing Pistoleers.
First off let me say this. In now way do I think the Bounty Hunter’s profession should be nerfed. (Maybe just modify there skill tree some to make them more unique separate from Pistoleers and Carbineers (Lighting cannon makes them seem like a weapon the Commando doesn’t get or what should have been the rifle skill). Bounty Hunters are Great at killing and that is what they are supposed to be. They are not a career focused user of the Carbine, Pistol and Rifle. Instead they have the ability to use a variety of weapons and be very effective at each type. Pistoleers should be better at the pistol then a Bounty Hunter. Bounty Hunters spend the extra points because they are supposed to be best at hunting down the scum of the galaxy and whoever else they are contracted to capture or kill. I want to point out Bounty Hunters should be best at what they do and that is to hunt down people, which they are.
Now here is the deal. Bounty Hunters should be best at killing over all because basically they have a weapon for any occasion. Meaning they can use any weapon any time and get the job done. Pistoleers should be the best at killing with Pistols. They have spent an additional 43 points in the pistol skill over the Bounty Hunter, making them more adept with the pistol then the Bounty Hunter. Here is where I think all those Scout skills and investigation skill come in. Bounty Hunters are constantly having to hunt/track there mark that is why they have those skills, but I think they should get a special bonus in the Bounty Hunter skill tree (Maybe in Investigation.) that will help speed up there exp in the investigation tree at the same time give them an overall combat advantage.
BOUNTYHUNTER
Required Skilled to get Master Bounty Hunter =217
Of those points 168 do not apply to pistol.
Master Scout = 77 Points Spent
0 skill points applied towards pistol skill..
-Exploring
-Hunting
-Trapping
-Survival/Camping
Master Marksman = 77 Points Spent
35 points applied towards pistol skill
-Rifle
-Pistol
-Carbine
-Ranged
Bounty Hunter = 63 Points Spent
14 points applied towards pistol skill.
-Investigation
-Bounty Carbine Specialization
-Bounty Pistol Specialization
-Bounty Heavy Weapon and Lightning. (Could Argue that it is a heavy rifle.)
TOTAL POINTS APPLIED FOR THE PISTOL SKILLS = 49
PISTOLEER
Required Skills to get to Pistoleer = 92
Scouting Not required (Most people take Exploration.)
My opinion is that all combat classes should be required to have – Exploration Tree.
-None of these skills are pistol associated.
-But people think spending the points here makes them believe that they should be better at using a pistol.
Marksman Heavy Side arms = 29 Points Spent
29 points applied towards pistol skill.
-Rifle -Does not apply to pistol (should not make you better at pistol)
-Pistol
-Carbine -Does not apply to pistol (should not make you better at pistol)
-Ranged -Can Apply but not required. ( Has advantages but should not make you better at pistol.
Pistoleer = 63 points spent
63 points applied towards pistol skill.
-Pistol Grips
-Pistol Marksmanship
-Pistol Techniques
-Pistol Stances
TOTAL POINTS APPLIED FOR THE PISTOL SKILLS = 92
That's a very orderly way of laying out all the facts, ShortJedi. Good job!
I've always believed that versatility was a Bounty Hunter's payoff for the investment, not outright power. They are dabblers in weaponry, plain and simple.
Pistol versus pistol, evenly equipped, and with nothing to separate them but their respective pistol skills, a skilled Pistoleer should demolish a skilled Bounty Hunter. For a Pistoleer with about 3/4 of the tree's skills, pistol on pistol, even a Master Bounty Hunter should drop fairly fast. And aMaster Pistoleer should turn any Bounty Hunter into Swiss cheese - again, assuming that they fight using just pistols.
The "real life" benefit Bounty Hunters have are that they can use range and a variety of targeted HAM attacks to exploit an opponent's weakness - they'd be fools to try to go toe-to-toe with a Pistoleer using a pistol. Combine their combat versatility with the unique content which Bounty Hunters get (it's sure to improve as time goes by), and you've got no need to whine about being less powerful using a pistol than a Pistoleer.
Once again, that's a nice orderly explanation you've presented there, ShortJedi.
I personally just think BH should be nerfed a little for versatility, pistoleer should get soem new WORKING skills and weapons, and BH should have there prereq points cut by 25-30 so they can do somehting else with they're skills.
AND MOVE EYESHOT TO F*CKING MASTER BH
I hope the leave things like they are because I love spitting on their corpses so much afterwards
You have so much hatred for a little pixel image, simply because you heald it in envy for so long...Perhaps you need to talk to someone
One other thing that I think would help the Pistoleer profession would be to have 1 more Type of pistol cert at Pistol Grips3 and 1 at Master.
Sorry I forgot to add that.
Thanks Electricnomad
I really like people's opinions on this post.
Pistoleers do you think I am off base are close to target.
Please give me some constructive input.
Pistoleer = 92
Rifle = 92
Carbine = 92
MBH = 217
The central question is "Why?"
Whether we like it or not, many aspects of this game were modeled off of the movie and EU. In it, we see a variety of bounty hunters, from the rookie fools (Greedo) to the feared Masters (IG-88, Bossk, Dengar) and let's face it, the ultimate (Boba Fett). These were feared individuals who had the instincts, tools and tactics to get the drop on anyone. While a Master Pistoleer might be better with his pistol than a Master BH, it was a moot point because the Pistoleer would find himself (in most situations) defeated through tactics before he/she had the time to use his/her pistol. Or if they did, the BH has other items to counter that mastery (armor, etc.).
Parsing this into SWG is next to impossible. Such subtlety is not possible when it comes down to button mashing etc. So the dev's were faced with a difficult situation to implement.
They had to as some point try and rate a master level's combat effectiveness. Hypothetically if the rated a :
Master Pistoleer @ Combat Power of 5
Master Rifleman @ Combat Power of 5
Master Carbineer @ Combat Power of 5
Master BH @ Combat Power of 10
(These are hypothetical numbers to illustrate a point)
This had to then be translated into skill points and time required. MBH requires 86% of the players skill points, and roughly 200 hours of game play just for the investigation tree. Most of the pre-novice requirements are simply there to use available skill points, thus limiting further combat effectiveness when reaching master.
The time requirment is important as well. We all know how easy/fast it is to get combat and weapon experience. Through aggressive game play it is quite easy to make Master Pistoleer, and aside from some of the pre-novice requirements taking set periods of time (camping for instance) getting novice bh for an aggressive power game is quite doable as well.
Hitting the Investigation line, even the power game is hard pressed to complete that tree quickly. Assuming zero failure, around 200 hours is needed just for that tree alone. If not more considering current bugs.
The only feasible reason why is that at the MBH level the dev's intend it to be more powerful than the single combat class, and as such more difficult to obtain in skill and time requirements.
This is not to say that a non-bh player has no chance to beat a MBH. With proper use of the remaining skill points new combat skills can be added that boost that players abilities making them a greater combat force. And most players that are combat oriented tend to make use of their extra points for combat skills.
Where Sony Failed - MBH Skills, Eyeshot
While I feel that Sony's vision of a MBH was correct, and that that skill points and time required to reach MBH is in line, I feel that they did not follow their own logic.
Issues:
1) MBH Specials/Advantages - currently there is little benefit to becoming a MBH. Special granted are lackluster at best. The only real reason to go MBH is out of a sense of pride and accomplishment.
2) Eyeshot - while considered a heretic by many of my BH friends who have no intention of going to Master (I do), Eyeshot's power is not in line with where it is obtained. This is a special that is extremely powerful, exactly the type of special that should be given to a MBH. Instead it is given at 0-0-2-0. Pre-novice pistol XP caps at 200k. With this the novice can instantly train pistol 1, and after a limited amount of time get pistol 2.
At which time they have an attack that can best a Master Pistoleer. This is not right. This does not fit with the vision of the BH and the purpose of the 217 skill point and time requirement.
Given this, I hope that it is moved to Master BH. I hope that the XP and time requirments for the investigation tree are not changed.
Given these fact I would expect many of the pistoleer community would have little problems with eyeshot if it were moved to MBH. Keep in mind that a MBH in the EU would 9/10 kill or capture a Master Pistoleer. Not because he/she was better with the pistol, but because they had better equipment/information/instincts/armor/tactic and quite possibly more powerful weapons.
This is an almost impossible thing to actually implement in a button mashing game like SWG. I don't argue that you are the master of pistols. But I also believe a MBH is the master of stealth and tactics. All the pistol skills in the world won't help if you find a blaster pushed to the back of your head before you even have time to react/draw your weapon.
Again these are my opinions based on what I have explained above..
Pre-Master BH's should have a hello of a time with Master Pistoleers/Carbineers/Riflement.
Master BH's should own a player who just has mastered one combat class.
Master BH's should have a harder time against a multi-combat class master (Pistoleer/CH, etc.).
I hope I have not come across as arrogant, I really have tried to look at this issue in a civil and calm manner. I believe there is a reason why there is such a disparity of skill points and time required. And I aslo believe sony dropped the soap on the controversial eyeshot skill. Eyeshot in its current location makes no sense.
Grexor wrote
Given these fact I would expect many of the pistoleer community would have little problems with eyeshot if it were moved to MBH. Keep in mind that a MBH in the EU would 9/10 kill or capture a Master Pistoleer. Not because he/she was better with the pistol, but because they had better equipment/information/instincts/armor/tactic and quite possibly more powerful weapons.
This is an almost impossible thing to actually implement in a button mashing game like SWG. I don't argue that you are the master of pistols. But I also believe a MBH is the master of stealth and tactics. All the pistol skills in the world won't help if you find a blaster pushed to the back of your head before you even have time to react/draw your weapon.
I like your post it is very constuctive and makes more of a point at what I am trying to get at. I think they that your point that MBH should be based on Stealth and Tactics is one of the main points I am trying to get at. A straight out Duel, PVP or whatever with pistols...the Pistoleer should win. Here is where I think they need to make all those other Skills that are Required for a MBH to take come in to play. I think that at Novice you should get some sort of Steath bounus skill before you engage maybe that allows you to go invis off radar for a few seconds...or like a 3 second invis....to give you that extra edge/first shot. But I feel also that being able to use a combination of weapons on one target should give you a bonus on fighting, not just one.
One thing I would agree with you on the points spent towards your profession if it had more to do with combat like the Commando taking Brawler I believe, that would make more sense. As it stands The only bonus you get in combat for Scout is the + to hit on creatures. I really think they should have made Bounty Hunter more combat oriented. From every movie I have seen, what makes a good BH is there intuitiveness, wit, stealth, tactics and they way they use their; gadgets, weapons, tools.
Given that MBH is the least mastered profession, and taking into account the time and skill requirements to get it, moving eyeshot to master would reduce the number of people using eyeshot by >99%. Having say 500 people on a server spamming eyeshot as opposed to 5 would be a significant reduction.
Frankly I am a little disappointed in the development team for not clearly spelling out their design reasons given this topic. I think they missed a potential opportunity in the overall desing of BH as well.
Consider this.
What if the developers had made BH a Elite profession that someone could quality for when making the rank of Master Pistoleer or Carbineer or Commando? The could have given each specialized type of BH access to just the specials in line with their current mastery. Granted the other specials are not in line with eyeshot but.. they could have for instance:
At Master BH (Pistol Specialization) - Eyeshot
At Master BH (Carbine Specialization) - Enhanced Fire Knockdown (1 Min. Knockdown timer).
At Master BH (Commando Specialization) - Enhanced LLC (increased Accuracy maybe?)
Abilities granted along the way could focus more on stealth, Player traps, and any number of other options.
Under such a system there would have been no confusion for anyone regarding the relative power of a novice to master BH. It's too bad really, would have prevented a lot of infighting.