Pistoleer Archive
Thread: So everyone says speed is a problem... what is the fix?
However, it seems that speed (DPS) is the biggest issue and affects balance along multiple classes (riflemen, carbineers, bounty hunters, commandos). The question is, how do we fix it? Or, what can we propose as a fix?
I'd imagine we'd need a new base equation. Or even several, since maybe different professions should progress differently. I don't see any problem with hitting the cap at Master level (1 second), but any ideas on an equation for pistoleers that we might suggest? Perhaps extrapolate the equation out to other professions as well?
Just looking for some thoughts, ideas. Thanks!
Let's examine what's really the problem with speed. Once we understand the problem, then the solution is easier to see.
Problem 1: Speed reduction can reduce net speed down to 0 and below. For completeness sake, the net speed formula is (weapon speed) * (special delay) * (1 - speed), where speed = speed skill / 100. It's possible to get speed skill over 100, which mean you can spam any special, any weapon speed, at 1 sec each, making you an unstoppable damage dishing machine. Even at 90 speed, you get a 10x reduction, so all 10 second weapon can be shot at 1 sec.
Problem 2: net speed is cap at 1 sec. For fast weapon, the speed skill get wasted.
Solution to problem 1: Don't allow speed to be reduced to 0. So solution is to hard-cap the speed skill. The actual cap is open to debate. Hardcoding a speed skill cap should cause no problem in the foreseeable future. I see absolutely no reason at all why it would ever be necessary to allow weapon to be fired at 0 net speed.
Ease of implementation--an easy 3 liners change with zero, none, zip, nadda chance for causing other bugs. No exploits possible.
Solution to problem 2: a) allow a mean trade damage for speed b) allow "wasted" speed skill mod to act as a damage modifier c) remove the 1 sec limit.
Ease of implementation: much more difficult to code, read it may other bugs. Exploits possibility: none. Really, all a, b, or c will do is not cap DPS. The DPS will remain the same for any of these solution.
To implement a require adding a new module to the weaponsmith/smuggler to separate out speed and damage (current implementation for weaponsmith is experimentation will simultaneously decrease speed and increase damage. This solution require another experimentatoin bar for speed only and one bar for damage only. Current implementation for smuggler is a random decrease in speed or an increase in damage. This solution require a skill for smuggle to trade one for the other; eg, increase speed and increase damage or decrease speed and decrease damage, randomly).
Implementation for b require another calculation check. The formula is pretty easy: if netspeed is < 1, cap net speead at 1 and increase damage= (speed skill - 1/weapon speed).
Implementation for c is even more difficult. Current net speed implement is speed debt. For example, if your net speed is 2.3, your delay is 3.0 second and you carry a speed debt of 3.0 - 2.3 = 0.7. The next weapon you fire has net speedof 1.9 s, you will fire at (1.9 - 0.7)= 1.2 net speed so you'll fire with a 2.0 second delay and a debt of 0.8. Then you auto fire with a 1.6 s net speed, you will fire with a 1.0 second delay (1.6 - 0.8 = 0.8 sec) with a debt of 0.2 s which get add onto the next shot.
To implement c would be buggy. They would had to redo the speed debt so that if the debt is over 1second, you fire again in that round and calculate the speed for the next shot. This allow you to shot more than once per second. No exploits and uber character since the DPS would remains the same. But the implementation would be buggy, so I'll doubt if they would go with this.
While a and b would solve the balance problem nicely, I dont really like the idea because it would basically turn rifles into pistols or the other way around, just with different specials. You'd still have everyone shooting at the same speed, and doing the same damage technically.
I for one like the idea that you have slow weapons that shoot hard and fast weapon that hit for smaller damage, but end up doing at least remotely close to the same dps in the end. It brings some nice variety and fun to the game.
As for c, you say the idea is to make people shoot faster than the once per second, but the dps would remain the same? I might be a bit slow this morning but I didnt quite understand that one 
You'd still need to cap the speed before the infinity point with that system though, and that leads to the other problems of hard capping player/item progression which I think are worse than the current balance issues in the long run.Details about thatin the other thread linked in this one so wont post the whole thing here again
Could drop the cap on pistols to say 0.8s, and that on carbines to 0.9s (change those numbers as needed to get everyones capped DPS with the best weapon roughly similar.
Cloudgatherer wrote:
I'd imagine we'd need a new base equation.
The speed equation in SWG is unusualsay the least.
Many games, especially RPGs, have constant or declining marginal skill benefits for each "skill point" invested by the player. The weapon speed equation here, however, offers an accelerating marginal benefit for each skill point invested, one that starts accelerating very quickly as the skill modifier approaches 100. Thus the need for a hard cap. This equation looks silliest from the view of a Rifleman, for whom those last few weapon speed points at Master provide enormous increases in speed and thus DPS.
From a very broad standpoint, I prefer declining marginal benefit type equations in games (and I have actually written such equations for real games). These
-- Reduce the concern of "uber, hardcore" players utterly dominating the game -- some one who has played five times as long and has five times the XP does is not five times more powerful; perhaps only three times more powerful (much less twenty times more powerful, as an uncapped accelerating marginal benefit equation might do).
-- Reduces the need for clunky fixes like hard caps -- at some point, throwing in more input to a declining marginal output system just does notgive you enough meaningful output, but each player can decide for himself at what point investment in a skill is no longer worthwhile. Thus, in our example, if you wanted the most uber-speed character on the server you can have it, but would have to sacrifice a lot to get it.
And as near as I can tell, SOE still doesn't see it. All they've mentioned in regards to speed is maybe taking some of the +20 speed we get at master and spreading it out over our skill tree.
There's a good thread here currently with a couple proposals in it. The initial one, in my opinion, would not be optimal, but Noules's idea down lower would work much better than what we have now.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=pistoleer&message.id=15098
Other possible solutions would be to use the current system with a hard cap (can't decrease speed by more than xx% - maybe 50 or 75), a soft cap (after 50 / 50%, it takes 4 skill points to receive every 1 more percent decrease), or a changing of where the skill points are given out so that people can't get to really high values.
You could also trash the speed system entirely and change to giving damage bonuses as you go up skill trees. Using a percent increase (proposed new method for adding a damage skill) instead of a percent decrease in the denominator of an equation (how it works now, which results in an exponential increase), would work fine.
Lots of options. And frankly, it's amazing that they chose the system they did because it's about the only option that doesn't work.