Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Maybe i am a stupid guy..... but....
ok i am really not a hero in math PERIOD but i try to make some calculations as well mostly based on what here was posted. Maybe you guys can help me out.
The Enviroment:
I got an UNSLICED FWG5 from Gorath Server with following stats
Min Damage : 60
Max Damage : 200
Speed : 2.0
So i take the Novice Pistoleer with Pistol Speed 30. With using the BodyShot 2 with following numbers from the FAQ Thread:
Delay mod1.8
Dmg mod2.1
dmg/action2.6
action cost31
dmg/sec43.8
sec/shot1.8
dmg/shot80.4
==================
BS2
Using the already known formula:
(WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) - (WeaponSpeed * SpecialDelayMod) * (PistolSpeed/100)
ok now i fill in my variables: ( 2,0 * 1,8 ) - ( 2,0 * 1,8 ) * ( 30 / 100 ) =2,52
The Damage Mod i thought was the multiplier of the Damage, so
Min Damage = 126
Max Damage = 420
Now comes the tricky part, maybe i am wrong but i thougth that anyway thats why i am posting here.
I want to calculate the Damage Per Second, from the Max Damage, so i took.
Max Damage from BodyShot 2 = 420 and the time i need to fire the shot: 2,52 seconds
Ifi do 420 dmg in 2,52 second, it will be 166,67 dmg per second.
Using: ( 420 / 2.52 ) * 1, if Speed < 1, then i use 1.
With Min Damage per Second i do the same:
( 126 / 2.52 ) * 1 = 50.00
Which brings me to the average Damage Per Second with Novice Pistoleer and Body Shot 2
( 50,00 + 166,67 ) / 2 = 108,33 DPS average per BS2
The Damage average per BodyShot himself cause i take 2.52 seconds to fire the shot is:
108,33 DPS_average * 2.52 = 273 damage points per BS2
If this calculations are right. I am shocked to see that with this weapon the average Damage per Bodyshot 2 is always 273 damage if you are only a Novice Pistoleer or a Master Pistoleer.
Ok i have to be a stupid guy who is so bad in math that he go back to elementary school at once. But can someone help me here ? Ok i forgot about Armor Piercing or/and Accuracy Modifiers... and the number 272 damage per BS2 is really low.. i normaly do about 500-600 damage per BS2
The goal was to calculate with different weapons at different stages of getting to Master Pistoleer to find a weapon which gives you the best for EACH Shot you normaly use.
Double Tap
Disarming Shot
Stopping Shot
BodyShot 2
Like i thought there are differences between speed and damage slices. With my excel sheet i can see now that a speed sliced FWG5 Speed 1.5 MinMax 60-202 is better with DPS average at Bodyshot 2 as a 30% DamageSliced Speed 2.0 MinMax 60-234 FWG5.... but i think my math is so completely wrong...
Guys help me out, cause i try to use the stats Philosopher1976 used in his Speed Posting: He uses a 40-168 dmg, 2.2 Speed FWG5 and calculates for Novice Marksman a simple shot with an AVERAGE DPS of 47.27 if i do this in my calcs it says: 49,76 dps / average using the DMG Mod 1 und Delay 1
But after i write this text this maybe isn't so wrong after all. Cause with my calculations a Novice Pistoleer with a weapon handed will do always the same damage per bodyshot 2 in average like the Master Pistoleer cause Speed of Weapon does not change and Damage Modifiers does not change either.
That sounds reasonable - now i have to figure out how secondary stats and basic "Accuracy" Mods fill in.
I'm not a Math Hero, but I am a Math Champion. Let me try to help you out. First, the basic questions:
The damage per shot will not change, not from Novice to Master. However, the speed and accuracy of those shots will change significantly, which will increase the damage per second much higher from Novice to Master. What should happen is that a Master Pistoleer should have replaced his BS2 with BS3 to do more damage than a novice, however, we all know that this isn't the case.
When choosing a weapon, three factors come into play: What the mob is vulnerable to, what your current +pistol speed is, and (for some) what skill you are using. If the weapon you use normally doesn't reach the 1s cap when using your favorite special (BS2), and the mob isn't heavily protected from it, you don't need to seek out a new weapon. If the mob is armored against everything but acid, use the DX2. The speed cap is hard to reach as a Pistoleer, even with a sliced weapon. Short of Master, you're going to need a 1.2 speed or lower scout to reach a 1s shot with BS2. For that reason, unless you're gaining +pistol speed from other classes, the cap won't really matter. That makes almost all choices come down to DPS and vulnerability. And since nothing touches the Scout in terms of DPS, it becomes the base weapon with the FWG and DX2 for the vulnerable mobs only (if you have either FWGs or DX2 with better DPS than the scout, more power to you).
Onto the question about slicing. The question about which to get also plays towards whether the speed slice would drop you down beneath the 1s cap. If it doesn't, I would recommend always getting the speed slice. The reasoning behind this is that a 33% slice to speed will net you much higher DPS increase than a 33% slice to damage. To give you an example, with Phil's 40-168/2.2 pistol (base DPS of 47), the damage slice would net you about a 63 DPS or so while the speed would net you 71 or so DPS. This is because the damage slice gets you a linear increase (25% damage slice gives you 25% more DPS) while speed is a logarithmic increase (a 33% slice weapon will net you more than 33% DPS increase until you reach the cap). However, there is the benefit of having a higher max damage in the terms that your bleed can be better. However, bleeds are still random in damage and I would contend you will more than make up for the DPS loss in a lower bleed by the massive rate at which you fire.
(Please note, I'm using a 1.8 speed mod for BS2 and a 2.0 damage mod for BS2. If it truly is 2.1, then you can substititute that in the math. My experience suggests it actually is 2.0 because I've yet to cause 2.1 damage).
Now onto your math. The first correction is the automatic 1.5 damage increase for all weapons and all attacks, to include the auto attack. That would mean your auto attack damage for your 60-200/2.0 pistol will be 90-300 and your BS2 should do 180-600 damage. For yourself, as a Novice Pistoleer, your speed with autoattack would be 1.4 seconds per shot and would be 2.5 seconds per shot for BS2. You take the long way around to get the DPS for your weapon, however. Instead of calculating the maximum and minimums separately, you can do it much faster by using:
((Weapon Minimum Dmg + Weapon Maximum Dmg) / 2 ) * Special Damage Mod * 1.5 / Calculated Special Speed
(( 60 + 200 ) / 2 ) * 2.0 / 2.52 = 130 * 2 * 1.5 / 2.52 = 155 Average DPS for using BS2
I know part of the problem is one of conventions used when discussing weapons. It is normal for a weapons DPS to be expressed solely on the stats of the weapon, independent on the users skill or speed. So, when Phil says a weapon is a 47.27 DPS, it is the weapon stats only. In the hands of even a novice marksman, that weapon automatically does 79 DPS using just autoattack because of his small +pistol speed. However, once the Pistoleer reaches the damage pinnacle that is BS2, he will be able to dish out much more DPS than the Novice Marksman.
As to your question about figuring out the right weapon/skill combination, it is unfortunately moot for most pure Pistoleers. The reason is that random HAM damage hits health at best about 50% of the time. Against a super medic type, the random HAM might be good because the small amount of mind damage will be better than the constant healing he can muster. However, for most targets (even those with Novice Medic and Stim-Bs), you can wear down the health much faster than the mind. And, even with the fairly nice weapon you have there, BS2 will still be your reliable death dealer. Here is the BS2 DPS you could expect as you climb the speed tree:
Nov P159.2
I174.1
II192.1
III214.3
IV242.2
Master390.0
For Fan Shot, you could get the following DPS:
Nov P232.1
I253.9
II280.2
III312.5
IV353.3
Master625.0
It never crosses the 'double BS2's DPS to become a more efficient killer' line, even at master. This is a significant reason that the specials for Pistoleer really don't mean anything to anyone short of a Bounty Hunter. As soon as BS2 is capped, Fan Shot can't ever do better than match it (BS2's damage is 2.0 while Fan is 4.0, ie double in the best case scenario), and BS3 is always waiting in the wings to do more once you have the pistol speed to make it valuable. Even slicing your weapon for 1s speed won't help because BS3 will do better than a capped Stopping Shot (2.5 health damage is better than 4.7 random HAM).
Sorry if this is a longer response than you were looking for, but I love the math in this game. All too often, I see people abandon the speed slice because they think damage is better, or think they've reached the speed cap because their autoattack has 1s firing rate, not remembering that their BS2 is 80% slower. Or thinking that a +6 per box in Stances is not worth it, without understanding that the difference in DPS between Stances III and Stances IV is 27% more from the same measily +6 speed.
Special: BS2 - 2X damage, 1.75X delay
At novice Pistoleer, pistol speed skill = 30
Attack speed = 2 * 1.75 * 0.7 = 2.45
Average damage per shot = 2 * 130 * 1.5 (see below) = 390
** note = Actual damage done is 1.5x the damage shown when examining a weapon. This is a global balance modifier.
DPS at Novice Pistoleer = 390 / 2.45 = 159.2
At Master Pistoleer (w/o Master Marksman), pistol speed skill = 74
Attack speed = 2 * 1.75 * 0.26 = 0.91, clipped to 1
DPS at Master Pistoleer = 390 / 1 = 390
Zerona, you made my eyes bleed. I understood 1% of that. I too am possess the math skills of a trained monkey.
But, I have always been a speed fan. Always happy to get a speed slice too. =)
My question to your mathmatical superiority is this... Should I still be using BS2? I gave up on it once I got double tap, and now fan shot. I am sitting at 1/4/4/3. And fan shot is my main shot. I still keep disarm on my bar for lairs. I also only use guns that are below 2.0. a 1.3 scout, 1.4 scout. 1.7 and 1.8 fwg5's and a 1.8 DX2. My fwg5 is a krayt, but I hunt tatooine mostly and it is all but useless on most stuff there. I actually find that the scouts do better damage than dx2's and fwg5's agains banthas and dewys. Anywho. Work your magic. =)
Great original and follow up post by the way.
hi zerona , regarding your reasoning for why a speed slice is better what about the fact that with a speed slice you will use more specials for a given amout of damage as compared to a damage slice. since specials have a cost should we not factor that in ( i often find my action bar almost completely depleted without getting hit once).
ok i miss the "Global Balance Mod" - my misstake but the rest seems to be ok, and thanks for the new information i got.
But it seems our calculation on which weapon is a good one or what our damage output ist depends on the Mods we use (from FAQ Posting) :
[ i use RED Color which things i have changed on new information on this thread ]
Delay mod 1 2.4 4.0 2.1 2.4 1.75 1.8
Damage mod 1 4.0 4.7 2.8 2.5 2.0 2.9
dmg/action 5.1 5.3 4.0 2.8 2.6 2.9
action cost 31 35 28 35 31 39
dmg/sec 37.3 62.3 44.5 50.5 39.0 43.8 60.6
sec/shot 1.0 2.5 4.2 2.2 2.5 1.8 1.9
dmg/shot 39.1 156.8 185.7 110.7 97.8 80.4 112.9
==================================================================
N FS SS DT BS3 BS2 PBS2
Delay mod 3.0 2.3 2.5 2.0 2.3 2.5 3.5
Dmg mod 4.3 2.9 4.1 2.0 2.0 2.7 4.2
dmg/action 5.5 4.0 6.6 2.5 2.8 3.5 5.2
action cost 31 28 24 31 28 31 32
dmg/sec 54.4 47.0 60.5 37.1 32.3 41.3 45.6
sec/shot 3.1 2.4 2.6 2.1 2.4 2.6 3.6
dmg/shot 170.1 112.8 158.5 77.5 78.4 107.3 165.7
==================================================================
PBA2 M1 M2 SB DS1 DS2 MTPS
Is this data still correct and/or can we have a sticky thread where we can display always our thoughts about the nearly accurate values ?
Shufflefied asked:
Should I still be using BS2?
With your stats, I'd recommend you useBS2 to maximize your killing. My reasoning is as follows:
With random HAM damage, maybe half your shots go to health, meaning you'll kill any reasonable HAM creature (say 3000+) through health damage. Now, against a healing player, you can try to obtain a kill through the small number of hits to the mind bar, but for the most part, BS2 is your killer.
With your skill level (+48 speed) and weapons (1.3 scout), you are like practically all pistoleers in that you still don't cap the speed with BS2 (1.2 seconds per BS2 or so). And since the DPS you get with Fan Shot isn't even close to double BS2's DPS, you're going to more slowly whittle down the health bar using Fan Shot.
As a test, I'd recommend finding some nice powerful creatures and a tank. Try taking one down with BS2 and the other with Fan. You may get lucky with consecutive Fans once in a while, but more often than not, the creature will drop with a whole lotta white bars and you've been at him forlonger than you would with BS2.
Gunner asked:
Hi zerona , regarding your reasoning for why a speed slice is better what about the fact that with a speed slice you will use more specials for a given amout of damage as compared to a damage slice. since specials have a cost should we not factor that in ( i often find my action bar almost completely depleted without getting hit once).
That's an excellent point. You certainly will be firing much more often with a speed slice than with a damage slice. However, you're going to have to fight for longer with a damage slice because you'll be causing less damage per second. If I took my old 1.7/70-140 Scout Blaster, I could kill a 3000 HAM creature a couple of seconds faster with the speed slice. So the question is, are you saving enough damage from being hit those few seconds than you're spending on the HAM? In my case, I'd rather dispatch them quickly and avoid taking damage.
Kletschologe said:
Is this data still correct and/or can we have a sticky thread where we can display always our thoughts about the nearly accurate values ?
I think it is pretty accurate, but there has been some contention that the increments are not in .1, but rather .25, which would mean some of these are off. Between the work that Jaegen, Noules, Philosopher, and Flyrojumper, there is a pretty good understanding of the values. Right now, I'm inclined to believe BS2 has a 1.75 speed multiplier and 2.0 damage, although Jaegen's earlier sample suggested 1.8 speed.
I missed the point. Regarding the table, it's in the FAQ. BS2 still looks fairly accurate on there. I have since updated some things, but really want to wait for the next BIG change to revise the FAQ and repost. Yes, normal damage is considered 1.0 in at reference, it seems to be how the damage was referenced, makes it easier (well, unless you forget about it). Which makes sense, I should put that note: in the top of the chart. Good input 
Congrats Easymcrhinopants!! The few, the proud, the pistoleers that spent a ton of time just to hit speed cap and actually get use out of a higher tier skill. Bravo!