Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Porposed Fix for Speed
This is my idea for a proposed fix to the speed dilema in swg, the ONLY way to fix it is to have a speed cap for all weapons.
As it is now I dont think Pistols should be able to fire 1 shot per second, even tho they are fastest shouldnt be this fast. So make weapons have the following speed cap mods:
Pistols +95
Carbines +85
Rifles +75
These might all have to be revised downwards since weaponsmiths could probably make guns (espcially for carbine and pistol) which could still result in 1 shot per second (weapons less than 2 second delay)
I think this is the kind of fix that we should be asking devs for rather than merely redistributing speed mods (which doesnt really help in terms of overall balance)
I think you have a good general idea -- no weapon should fire at once per second, but pistols should be a lot closer to once per second than the other weapons.
I don't like your specific solution, though. You'll still have the problem with people using Master Marksman or Bounty Hunter to go over this cap, unless you make it impossible to go over this cap even if you get the skills for it.
The best system would be one that changes the way these mods work entirely, so you don't get huge reductions in speed for minor increases in the + speed profession modifier as you get high up.
A better equation:
Net Delay = (Raw Delay) * (1/(1+speed))
where speed is the speed mod expressed as a percentage. This has the nice quality of being a linear relationship between speed modand DPS.
Pistols +95
Carbines +85
Rifles +75
Agreed, I've wondered for a while now why the heavier damage guns don't work slower, like with the commando weapons. It takes 9 seconds to return fire, heal or anything after a flame thrower special(16 meters max range)while a T21 can do nearly that much damage from 64 meters out, every second.
Very nice! I had a different idea for fixing things (changing it from percent decrease in delay to percent increase in damage, which yields IDENTICAL DPS numbers to your solution, it just does it by increasing damage instead of decreasing delay), but yours is even better because it requires fewer changes and maintains the basic game mechanics of more highly skilled players attacking more quickly.
I know that most people can't look at an equation like that and "see" a graph of the effects in their head (myself included!), so I ran some numbers to show how Noules000's equation works:
Net Delay = (Raw Delay) * (1/(1+speed))
Note - the speed here is speed skill represented as a percent, in other words:
Net Delay = (Raw Delay) * (1/(1 + speed skill/100))
- or -
Net Delay = (Raw Delay) * (100 / (100 + speed skill))
For a 4 delay weapon:
- 4 * (1 / (1 + .25)) = 3.2
- 4 * (1 / (1 + .50)) = 2.67
- 4 * (1 / (1 + .75)) = 2.29
- 4 * (1 / (1 + 1.00)) = 2
- 4 * (1 / (1 + 1.25)) = 1.78
- 100 damage, 4 delay weapon = 25 DPS
- at 25 skill: 31.25 DPS (25% increase in DPS vs 0 skill)
- at 50 skill: 37.5 DPS (50% increase in DPS vs 0 skill)
- at 75 skill: 43.75 DPS (75% increase in DPS vs 0 skill)
- at 100 skill: 50 DPS (100% increase in DPS vs 0 skill)
- at 125 skill: 56.25 DPS (125% increase in DPS vs 0 skill)
There are still issues though:
The new equation, by having a flat percent increase from the initial value, gives diminishing returns. Going from 0 skill to 25 skill gives a 25% increase in DPS vs 0 skill, and 125 skill is a 125% increase in DPS vs 0 skill, but it's only 12.5% more damage than you had at 100 skill, so your 25 pts is getting you less and less as you get higher in skill.
Hmmm... good or bad?
It's like a built in soft cap. It reduces the effectiveness of dabbling. It reduces the concern of people piling on speed modifier clothing / armor if they ever fix skill enhancement attachments. But it also means that you get a larger relative increase in effectiveness at lower skills, and at master, you're doing quite a bit less damage than you are now.
Ignoring the possibility of hitting the speed cap:
- Old system: 25 skill increase from 50 to 75 increased your damage (relative to skill 50) by 100%
- Noules000's system: 25 skill increase from 50 to 75 increases your damage (relative to skill 50) by 16.7%
Huge difference (like I said - all combat classes would be doing a fair amount less damage). Now, obviously Noules1000's equation is much better. It doesn't run away to infinity at high values and destroy HUGE amounts of game balance (weapon balance, profession balance, and special attack balance). But it also marginalizes the usefulness of speed skill at higher values.
Is there a happy medium? Is it possible to adjust the equation to give a flat increase in relative damage output, instead of absolute damage output? No running away to infinity at high values, but also no diminishing returns?
I'm not a mathematician, but I don't see an easy way. If you make it so that 75 skill gives 25% more damage than 50 skill did, then you're on a curve now, so only one point "works". 75 skill = 125% of the damage you did at 50 skill, but it won't be 105% of the damage you did at 70 skill, or 150% of the damage you did at 25 skill.
I would definitely support using this equation over the one that's in place now! Much much better. I'm just wondering if there isn't further refinement that could be made. What do you guys think?
Noules000 wrote:
A better equation:
Net Delay = (Raw Delay) * (1/(1+speed))
where speed is the speed mod expressed as a percentage. This has the nice quality of being a linear relationship between speed modand DPS.
You'd have to readjust the whole game as far as PVE goes. For example, I'm a BH with +70 speed and a 2.0 gun. Currently I can bodyshot every 1.08 seconds, with that method it would be every 2.18 seconds. That's a big difference in power, it means it takes me twice as long to kill a mob, so every mob I fight will be twice as hard.
I like the way it works now, but there ought to be a hard cap as stated by someone else around 80 for all weapons. No need to set different hard caps for different weapons, because the slowness of say rifles is already built into the weapon. Currently, assuming you don't dabble in BH, the caps are 79 pistol, 75 carbine, and 95 rifle. The 95 rifle is insane. The difference between a 95% reduction and a 75% reduction is immense. With the same delay weapon, a 95 can fire 5 times per 1 shot from the 75. That's a lot more than 20% faster, it's more like 400% faster.
Additionally, if I were a non-BH and was in one of the elite weapon classes, I'd be petitioning for them to not rearload the speed bonus. The +20 you get at master is a huge jump from anything previous. A pistoleer almost doubles in speed in the jump from 59 to 79, and a rifleman quintuples going from 75 to 95.
The biggest problem though is the disparity in the speeds. A master rifleman can headshot with a T21 almost as fast a master pistoleer or BH can shoot a pistol. This really is stupid. A lot of people whine about eyeshot, but I think that's because not many have run into master rifleman.
Well, one of the major advantages of being linear relative to a 'base' DPS is that the value of +10 speed is the same regardless of what other skills you get. This greatly minimizes the issue of people being able to stack speed mods from different classes to get a large effect, and it also means that +10 speed tape is worth the same DPS to botha newbie and a master. That means it's okay for newbie mobs to drop +5 speed while upper level mobs to drop +25 - it still works out to the same relative advantage for when you get them.
While it's true that if you already have high speed, you receive less -relative- benefit from the mod, you still get the same damage potential increase. If they want higher level players to benefit as much from a box (relatively) they can just scale the speed bonus (e.g. +5 at intermediate, +10 at advanced, +15 at expert, +20 at master, +25 at master pistoleer) without worrying about how stacking with another class will affect balance. This just provides a means to make sure +1 speed is worth +1 speed no matter what level the player.
I was thinking something along the lines of what you were saying with giving more speed at higher skills so that you got a similar relative effect (say... receiving a 5 or 10 percent relative increase to damage).
Another solution to bring things back to where they were before, but without destroying the balance between fast / slow classes, fast / slow eapons, fast / slow specials (having everything fire once per second regardless) would be to add a damage skill as well. So you would receive the speed bonuses you do now, which would give you less of a benefit at higher skill levels with the fixed equation, but also receive bonuses to damage with some of the higher skills. Something like this may be needed to bring players back into balance without modifying pve parameters.
Philosopher1976 wrote:
I don't like your specific solution, though. You'll still have the problem with people using Master Marksman or Bounty Hunter to go over this cap, unless you make it impossible to go over this cap even if you get the skills for it.
I meant these numbers as caps that your speed mod could nto exceed
Your equation, if I am reading it right would make me fire at 1 shot per 0.6 seconds.
Noules000 wrote:
A better equation:
Net Delay = (Raw Delay) * (1/(1+speed))
where speed is the speed mod expressed as a percentage. This has the nice quality of being a linear relationship between speed modand DPS.
What that equation does is makes the speed mod a percentage increase to speed instead of a decrease to delay.. So in practice, a +100 mod would be a 100% increase to speed, meaning you'd fire 100% faster, or in other words twice as fast as you did before. If you have a 3.0 delay weapon at +100 mod, the equation would be 3.0 * (1/1+1.00) resulting in 3.0 * 0.5 = 1.5 delay.
And yes I totally agree with that one, it's the best way to handle the mods since it has no hard cap of reaching infinity at any point, and the increase is linear instead of the current skyrocketing at higher levels.