Pistoleer Archive
Thread: Speed Modifiers Problem : simple numbers
First of all, pardon my poor English, not my mother tongue.
Since jaegen's post on the General Discussions forum reached its goal, let's now show up another thing everyone already suspected. At the moment, Speed Modifiers are just a "bug", something definitaly wrong with this. Here are the Profession Skill Trees of Marksman, Rifleman, Carbineer, Pistoleer and Bounty Hunter, you'll see how unbalanced those modifiers are by themselves but adding the ability to stack them just makes 2 Professions GOD-LIKE.
You all remind what we already stated with complete formulas and stuff : if your weapon speed reaches 100, the delay is completely irrelevant, you shot once per second whatever you want to do and with ANY weapon. This is a real problem and need to be fixed ASAP.
I don't think formula need to be changed but the way you get bonuses is simply THE problem. Let me remind you all with all the different bonuses you can get Profession Wide for Carbine, Rifle and Pistol (and LLC for fun and "whining purpose").
Let's go with Marksman (said weapon XP):
Lvl 1 - Tier 6 : Rifle 5 - Pistol 5 - Carbine 5 (Master)
Lvl 1 - Tier 5 : Rifle 5 - Pistol 5 - Carbine 5
Lvl 1 - Tier 4 : Rifle 5 - Pistol 5 - Carbine 5
Lvl 1 - Tier 3 : Rifle 5 - Pistol 5 - Carbine 5
Lvl 1 - Tier 2 : Rifle 5 - Pistol 5 - Carbine 5
Lvl 1 - Tier 1 : Rifle 5 - Pistol 5 - Carbine 5 (Novice)
Total : Rifle 30 - Pistol 30 - Carbine 30
So, once Master Marksman, you gain +30 speed modifier in all 3 categories. Here a BH will be advantaged BUT he spent way more time for a tiny Bonus, I think they deserve it (Master speed mod should be more imho). unbalance is already on his way because being a "modifier", the longer your weapon is, the more effect it will grant. Simple math.
But let's say it is QUITE balanced for now.
Now, the Rifleman (Combat XP):
Lvl 2 - Tier 6 : 20 (Master)
Lvl 2 - Tier 5 : 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 4 : 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 3 : 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 2 : 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 1 : 5 (Novice)
Total : 65
Weeeeeeeeellllllllllll...we can clearly see a Master Rifleman reaches +65 mod, add them to the +30 mod earlier and you are VERY close to 100. Actually, you don't have to reach 100 to cap your speed, most of pistols for example are delay capped long time before, 50 is enought to cap a 1.7 dly weapon (which isn't very rare). A "lazy" Rifleman with Master Rifleman only is at +90 modifier, this allows him to fire special move once per second with a Rifle with dly under something like 7 or 8...I can find some with dmg above 500 VERY easily. This is where the problem begins.
Speed Mod for Rifleman is WAY too much, they should only get a +40 mod from their tree, not 65 mod.
Now, let's compare with the 2 top whining professions : Carbineer and Pistoleer
Carbineer (Carbine XP):
Lvl 2 - Tier 6 : 10 (Master)
Lvl 2 - Tier 5 : 5
Lvl 2 - Tier 4 : 5
Lvl 2 - Tier 3 : 15
Lvl 2 - Tier 2 : 5
Lvl 2 - Tier 1 : 5 (Novice)
Total : 45
Pistoleer (Combat XP) :
Lvl 2 - Tier 6 : 20 (Master)
Lvl 2 - Tier 5 : 6
Lvl 2 - Tier 4 : 6
Lvl 2 - Tier 3 : 6
Lvl 2 - Tier 2 : 6
Lvl 2 - Tier 1 : 5 (Novice)
Total : 49
So, a Carbineer get a +45 speed mod while the Pistoleer get a +49. We could say it is almost balanced since Pistols are meant to be much faster but still a tied score. Carbineer also have the HUGE advantage to gain his first speed mods with CARBINE EXPERIENCE, not COMBAT one. Btw, I think everyone will admit 2 things :
- Carbineer progression is just stupid, Tier 3 they get a +15 mod when they only get +10 at master, awesome.
- those +6 speed mod are not only strange (why +6 and not +5 ?), they are irrelevant. You must reach Master lvl to gain a REAL bonus (only Profession to have to be MASTER to be very efficient, Rifleman are efficient before that, they become Gods at Master).
Anyway, I fail to see WHY Master Rifleman get so much speed mods when they are MEANT to be slower the Carbineers and Pistoleers.
Now, the more important part. Bounty Hunter (said weapon experience:
Lvl 2 - Tier 6 : ZERO (Master)
Lvl 2 - Tier 5 : LLC 10 - Pistol 10 - Carbine 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 4 : LLC 20 - Pistol 20 - Carbine 20
Lvl 2 - Tier 3 : LLC 10 - Pistol 10 - Carbine 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 2 : LLC 10 - Pistol 10 - Carbine 10
Lvl 2 - Tier 1 : ZERO (but LLC) (Novice)
Total : LLC 50 - Pistol 50 - Carbine 50
yep, you can see it : 50 speed mod for Pistol, Carbine AND LLC. You have to be Master Pistoleer to shoot faster than a tiny BH Pistol tier 4. This is pure shame, it unbalances the whole game as it is with those simple numbers, not to mention this XP is VERY fast (weapon XP, figure...), but the best is still to come : THESE SPEED MODS ARE STACKING !
Yep, someone with only tier 4 BH pistol and tier 3 Pistoleer speed mod reaches almost 90 speed mod, more than a non-BH MASTER PISTOLEER will ever get. You should just try to master Pistoleer to see how long the mods are to get, really.
It is obvious a BH with a minimal effort is able to reach the speed cap for Pistol and Carbines, leaving him able to use a LLC and get the T21 Rifle (which hopefully he will never be able to use as well as a Master Rifleman). The Rifle line is very special for this : the only way to get faster is to BE a Rifleman...oh, something VERY important here, nobody agreed ?
Imagine that : and what about NOT allowing those speed mods to stack ? Imagine a simple rule that would say "ok, you are tier 5 pistoleer speed mod and you are tier 3 BH speed mod for pistol...well man, we will only count your Pistoleer mods since 5 > 3".
This is VERY simple to implement and no one will ba able to reach 100 in any weapon, never. Of course, this is ONLY for speed mods, not for special moves and so. The accuracy mod can be looked at I think, there is surely another issue there. But as it stands, BH are just GODS weapon wise, nothing can compare them and it ruins balance in the whole game : if you want to survive, you have to be a BH...Game Failure if you ask me.
Even with existent numbers (which are VERY overpowered for Rifle, hard to argue the opposite), this simple rule would just avoid BH to become GODS, leaving them above Masters Carbineers and Pistoleers only considering Speed Mods.
I don't think this is a big deal, it would re-balance things A LOT and this is nerfing no one as it stands (well...Rifle is still overpo...ok).
Would just like to know what you think about that.
yep, you can see it : 50 speed mod for Pistol, Carbine AND LLC. You have to be Master Pistoleer to shoot faster than a tiny BH Pistol tier 4. This is pure shame, it unbalances the whole game as it is with those simple numbers, not to mention this XP is VERY fast (weapon XP, figure...), but the best is still to come : THESE SPEED MODS ARE STACKING
We get no speed mods in our mastery title....
If your looking for an argument there, you wont have it, as I agree with your about our mods being too bunched up.
However +1 speed makes no diffrence 
....
And frankly, the devs are fixing this they said, they already stated they are moving around the speed mods in the pistoleer tree....
BH are just GODS weapon wise, nothing can compare them and it ruins balance in the whole game : if you want to survive, you have to be a BH...Game Failure if you ask me.
BH's are not gods....Pistoleer/BH's pistol trees are ...Btw I know you said this, just clarifying..
Also a carbineer with the BH carbine tree will can own just about anyone....They are the true gods, if your looking for some 
The whole point wasn't really to compare speed mods but to show something evident : without BH mods as a pistoleer or carbineer, you're way underpowered. Remove the stackability of those mods and all become suddenly more balanced, if you adjust incredible Riflemen mods.
It is FAIR, easy and will avoid some combo to be "ultimate". All the difference between character will only rely on PREFERENCES and PLAY STYLE, not absurd skills / modifiers that everyone tend to get just because they can't survive in PvP, taking out all the future of the game when you have no skill point to spend.
Keep in mind that this is STAR WARS please SOE...this is NOT Everquest. Read this :
Star Wars being a fan's World, it belongs to them for the most part. It is FANS that created this World.
No one is reading it seems.
Thanx Taewyn for you replies
Their current speed system has a number of problems. The simple fact that at 100 or higher skill all balance falls apart any any profession, using any weapon and any special, will fire once per second is a huge problem. Then the fact that because the equation is exponential, giving someone just a few more points at the high end makes such a gigantic different is poor design. On top of that the poorly planned point distribution where the supposedly slowest profession gets more speed, and therefore ends up just as fast as anyone else is a big mistake. And on top of that, we have the problem you mentioned where by stacking the speed skills you can cap as well. All problems, and it doesn't look like they're going to really fix anything, but just band-aid the situation a little with some extra caps.
YOU can still be master Pistoleer and have BH pistol skills . . .
or YOU can choose to forgo it, maybe to have some medic instead. . .
maybe YOU want to be a Pistoleer/CH . . .
maybe YOU want it all in one nice package . . .
You know what I think though?
I think YOU forget that . . .
( P.S I yelled at the BHJ's on thier forum the same exact thing . . . so take no personal offense ) . . .
SWG IS A SKILL BASED GAME, NOT A CLASS BASED GAME. YOU HAVE THE CHOICE IN SWG TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHATEVER POINTS YOU WANT AS LONG AS YOU BUILD APON A REQUIRED SKILL. IF YOU WISH TO PLAY A CLASS BASED GAME, PLEASE STOP BITCHING ABOUT SWG SKILL SYSTEM, AND GO PLAY EQ!
The YOU.
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Dark Imitation, the Caps Lock key is on your keyboard, I'm sure you can locate it.
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Yes it was rather easy to find when I used to exlaim my feelings on how I think alot of people are forgetting that fact. Thanks though, but I knew it was there
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Who dealt with skills exactly ? I was speaking about modifiers, not skills.
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And what pray tell is it in game that grants modifiers? Hmm? Wait! Thats right! SKILLS!
Hamrless sarcasm aside, are you asking then that only the pistoleer brnaches gain anything to do with piustol? The Devs didnt see fit to this, I guess. They also didnt see fit to make this a class based game, and for that Im thankfull. Also asking me if I aam " BH " first off is rude . . .
I said it to them, I will say it to you.
I am neither a BH or a pistoleer. Im a player playing SWG. I have some pistoleer skills, I have some BH skills. I sacrficed some in oone to gain in another and vise-vera. You want what I sacrificed but dont want me to have what I clamied in its place. This is wrong. SWG is not designed to be played like this. To many people are to comfortable with a class based RPG system, and have beguun to complain about the way SWG system has been developed. One of the reason I love SWG, and loved UO, wwas freedom of choise. EQ, most Other online and offline RRPG's ( to date ) did not allow me this freedom of choice.
I just woke up, but I will try to state how I feel as nicelly as possible.
This is a gaming system. If you like the overall mods, specials, and title granted to you at aa master lvl, of if you just wanna " Go for the gold " by all means then do it! Howveer, I didnt see any prime benifit in taking all of pistoleer, when in fact, mixing and matching it with the other Skill box mods granted in different trees made me still able to play the way I wanted, and afforded me some small, yet beifical, medical skills.
This is the way I choose to play. I do not say you have to play the way I do! No no! Yet you do not have a right to criticise me for the way I choose to play the game vs the way you choose to play the game.
It neveer fails, in UO, one guy would pick up the skilll " God Sword of the Pwns JO0 " and one guy would pick up " Begging " . . and then the begger would complain the swordsman was kickin his butt . . .
All Im saying is stop complaining and play the game the way you want.
P.S = I will admit the devs need to add a tad more incentive FOR those shooting for master, . . but this terms D" Dabbler " is really starting to annoy me. There is no " Dabbling " in SWG, there is just " Character prefrence and style ". Its a skill based game. End.
Oh and making the game way more fair? It is fair. You can switch your skills if you want. You can build yourself however you want. This isint " wizards vs Warriors " balance here. I wish people would stop this. The classes should be balanced yes.
I gave up doge, and all speicials in it. I gave up master pistoleer specials and mods, and the last box of pistol speed and melee defense. Why? SO I could gain some other speicals somewhere else ( BH () and be alittle faster with my gun. I have things you dont, you have things I dont. . .
How is this not fair?
I think the term "skill" is misleading. Let's talk about certs, special moves and modifiers, skills being reserved for boxes. Sounds OK to me.
So, what I was saying was : you still get speed mods, either you're a BH or a Pistoleer. The change would be to not add all your mods, only the profession you're the most advanced should count. yes this can seem abusive at first sight BUT like it is now, it is abusive too AND makes no sense.
I already explained why and how. Pure non sense someone can be able to shoot twice as fast (almost) than another pistol expert just because he is wasting some of his time to track ppl down. Really, i fail to find any explanation.
NOW, of course Certifications / Special Move should add, this should be THE reason you got them.
Nowadays, if you aren't somewhat BH, you can stay covert for a long time, even a Comando. I love SW and I don't feel everyone is a BH in all I've played / seen / read. So there is something definately wrong.
Try to figure out what are the consequences of what I just said (which makes MANY sense) and you'll see BH are still better than others BUT they aren't Free Raid Killers anymore, they must play different and wisely.
Only this reason is enought to me, not the only one we can foresee.
Who dealt with skills exactly ? I was speaking about modifiers, not skills.
Remember you can't type twice faster just because you're half developper and half secretary. You will just type at your max skill.
Where is the problem beside making the game way more fair ?
You BH ?
The Dev's already talked about varying speed caps for each weapon. Capping pistols at .5 (prolly won't happen, prolly stay at 1), Carbines up to about 1.5, and Rifles up to 3.
If these changes take place Rifles will always have a speed of 3 as the fastest no matter their speed mod.
This will guarantee that high-level pistol usersare the fastest, the way it was meant to be.
But with a speed mod of 129, BH would be able to shot with almost ANY gun at this new .5 cap speed.
Really, you can't see the point ?
OK, let's say elsehow : limit Pistol Speed Mod to 80 only (just an example, let's say 85 to leave BH above once again as they sssoooooooo much deserve it).
The problem isn't the value of the cap, it is the cap itself. If someone can reach this cap whatever the pistol he uses, the game CAN NOT be balanced, in anyway.
I even admit what is non sense : I let the BH faster than master pistoleers (stupid but don't want to receive tells from Kevin all day long). But really, don't allow them to reach the cap so easily.
If speed is limited to 85 for pistols, then ONLY a combination of Pistoleer and BH can reach it. It still allow ppl to grap new moves and certs BUT it doesn't grant them anymore the ability to shot with any pistol as fast as someone using a really faster gun just because of a bug.
And this should be done for Carbine and Rifle too. Maybe limit Carbine cap to 1 and Rifle to 2.5 ?